33 replies to this topic

[mil6507]

Hello all,

I have recently purchased 2.5 acres of agricultural land. At present, it is a flat piece of land with amenity grass seeded in April. It is all green now. My plan is to make a woodland out of it with a .074 acre pond (20 x 15 metre). Pond application was submitted yesterday and the council asked me for 170.00 as this would be classified as an engineering operation. The application has not been validated yet.

My question is - are there any animals that I can keep on the land that can look after themselves. There are a 1000 rabbits in the ditch some 10 metres away and I am getting rabbit proof fencing to keep them out to protect the trees. There is no water on the land hence the need for a natural pond. I know all animals need water so in a way this is a daft question but just thought no harm asking.

Thanks

[che]

Hi Mil6507,
Have you considered the Lesser Spotted Planning Officer, I believe local councils up and down the country are about to dispose of 25% of there stock. Whilst I know little of there needs I have heard there may already be one lurking around your property without either your knowledge or permission. Another distinguishing feature is they carry cameras which they point at everything. Whist I believe these may attract government subsidy(unemployment benefit & council tax rebate) to the best of my knowledge these are not covered in the single farm payment scheme. Perhaps other members could suggest other uses for this animal.

PS apologies for going slightly off topic on your post just could not resist it. Dave C

[mil6507]

Hi Dave,

Do they need water and would they live off amenity grass? Also, where should I look for the spots - back or front?

Cheers

[Groundhog]

There is also Greater Spotted variety these are similar to the Red Squirel Grey Squirel relationship considered a pest can do large amount of damage if left unchallenged.Cheeky Chappies !

[surreydodger]

Hi Mil,

I don't think there is such a thing as a zero maintenance animal for farming purposes. One of the hardy sheep breeds would probably fit your criteria best though they will still need some looking after. They will also tend to keep your land in fair order by their grazing.

As to the species Planningtwaticus Offthickylicer, this is not only considered a pest but I believe could be being placed on the Dangerous Animal register in due course. The damage it causes to the human inhabitant of the countryside is well known, often bringing a business to its knees and frequently stopping such before it gets a chance to thrive. Then there is its devastating capability (and ultimately dangerous) to drive humans to a mental breakdown. There is much evidence available on the net to its existence but unlike most pest species, the PO has no redeeming features. Even wasps at least eat other pest species such as flies.

Some people have stood up in defence of PO's on the basis that without them, the country would become a concrete jungle and the land would be filled with monstrous carbuncles, destroying the nature and tranquility of the land. The evidence since the introduction of this foriegn species since the late 1940's does not bear this out. There has abeen a steady but continual decline of human population from the countryside as the financial viability of living in a built up area ooutweights the recompense of living 'on the land'. One can also see since the introduction that PO's have affected development in a horrendous fashion with buildings in the 50's/60's and early 70's having to continuously be eradicated using heavy machinery to pull them out by their roots.

Sadly, even if reports of a 25% decline in their numbers (a welcome piece of news if it bears out) this is little consolation to the would be land dweller. Until either 100% eradication of PO's can be achieved or a successful cross breeding program can be instilled to introduce a degree of intelligence, the land will continue to be blighted by this most beligerent oof UK pests.

[happymanoftheworld]

Sorry to be a killjoy to your plans but the two breeds mentioned earlier DO need water..... preferably a bucketful thrown towards (almost) the direction of the mouth....... even better is the spetic tank/slurry flavour!!!

Seriously, they are only doing their job and frequently it is their boss who is the awkward one..... so like all good gov. employees they tend to cover their **** (type of donkey!). I do have sympathies for them...... but I still get very annoyed!

Have a GREAT sunny day wherever you all are!!!!

[mil6507]

Hi surreydodger,

I can attend to the sheep once a week (water trough, etc.) Would they leave my trees in rabbit guards alone? How many do I need for 2 acres and if they multiply as advised in the old testament, would it be easy to sell them off? Could you recommend some names in English?

As for the other breeds (PO and the latin/greek named one), can they be fed pellets used to contain rabbit infestation and for the thicker ones, can licensed rifles be used now that the Tories are in?

Mil6507

[che]

Hi Mil,
Have you considered Shropshire sheep a rare breed that will not eat your trees. Apparently they are used by Christmas tree growers and orchard ownners to control grass and weeds whilst leaving the trees alone.
Sheep are normally stocked at around 5 to the acre but you would probably need to reduce this as your trees grow.
Dave C

They have a website www.shropshire-sheep.co.uk check out the topic SHEEP IN TREES

[surreydodger]

Hi Mil,

I'm not sure I can give you an answer. Looking after any type of typical livestock is going to require an attendance of moore than once a week. I appreciate Fell farmers and the like don't get to see their flocks every day but even so, they have an in built ken of what's going on and they are at hand if needs be. Is there anyone local to your land that you might be able to cast a more frequent eye across your land? There are better qualified on this forum to advise but my experience with sheep is they are very capable of picking up a myriad of ailments (from footrot to flystrike) which if treated punctually, makes the diiference between a quick and easy fix to calling in the slaughterman for cat food.

[che]

Hi Mil,
Defra has issued guidelines on welfare for farmed sheep which is available on there website. This year we farmed next to some grazing land rented to a welsh hill farmer. His fatalities were reported to the RSPCA by a local worker(not farming related). The inspector asked us if we knew the name of the tenant and how to get hold of him. He also informed us all farrmers were now required by law to check livestock once a day. Not sure about that, there is certainly a duty to do this for livestock who are highly dependant for there welfare ie broiler houses or other intensive methods of rearing animals. For animals less dependant these inspections need to be frequent enough to prevent any suffering. This would allow hillflocks greater flexibility particularly if they are using hardier sheep. We hovever would tend to go along with surrydodger in advising visual checks at least once a day. The suggestion of getting someone to look out for you is not only valid, it was a topic on Countryfile where I believe some authority were using volunteers to do this and were having great interest shown.

Dave C

PS if you google volunteer shepherds it will give you a link to information about this on the brighton-hove.gov.uk website

[happymanoftheworld]

Thought you might be interested in this - for Scotland, but it does say similar is being introduced in England/Wales http://www.scotland....Recommendations
If you click on cattle, for example just under para 10 it tells you that cattle must be checked and handled frequently.... there are quite a few things of note like access to fresh water etc. These are relatively new guidelines coming after my appeal. I live down a farm track and last winter was hell - even living on site. If I had had to live off site the animals would have suffered - I would have been snowed out.

I am putting together a cut and paste of how the planning department would be making me break the guidelines, based on welfare legislation. Every bit of more info helps I think...... basically the planners not allowing me to live there would be forcing me to be guilty of animal cruelty.

Have a Great day!

[mil6507]

Thank you all for your advice. Personally, not having fresh water I think is going to be a major hurdle. I don't think I'll put the animals through any misery otherwise there will be no difference between me and the two-legged animals at the council. I think I'll have to give this one a miss and put a sign up to say migratory birds and orphan animals welcome or something to that effect.

Just to digress a bit, my neighbour wants to keep pigs and he lives local but the council said he needs permission for the arcs. When he said he would be moving the arcs every 10 days, they said he would need permission every time he moved them due to article 4.

So as you can see, it's not just the sheep ailments or water supply that I might have to deal with but also the Etonian brains that plague the councils of this country.

[Cornish Gems]

Hi - had you thought about digging a borehole? We have been surprised by the number of times one of the 'providers' has said, 'we can do that for you'. It will depend on how much you want to spend as to the end result. If you just want a hole out of which you can pump water, then that can be relatively inexpensive - but if you want one with a proper 'housing' then that is a 'deluxe' kind and far more expensive. Having said that, the 'deluxe' is far more conducive towards providing you with drinking water in the future.

In your circumstances we would go for finding someone to dig a 'hole' deep enough to enable you to pump water out of the ground.

Phill

[che]

Hi Mil,
If you have an Article4 you do not pay for planning applications so why not put in for A pig ark quoting animal welfare rules if succesful you could put in regular applications to move it. I cant believe we are having this conversation . You cant keep animals on agricultural land. Your planning office must be full of Planningtwaticus Offthickyllicers god help us all.

Dave C

[KChally]

Hi All,

What is wrong with these planners!!! If I worked for a company and made this many mistakes and gave out so much wrong information I would be sacked.

We have pigs who live outside and to be able to call them "free range" or "outside reared" you HAVE to provide them with shelter ie ARKS. Therefore if you have agricultural land you must be allowed to have agricultural animals, therefroe the need for shelter. Also these arks are not fixed to the ground. We move ours around with the tractor.

Another point for H M O T W. If you can keep your animals INSIDE over winter, they are then totally reliable on you for their food and water. Surely then the planners cannot stop you from needing to be their 24 hours when you are snowed in, because of animal welfare.

Regards
KChally

[happymanoftheworld]

Another point for H M O T W. If you can keep your animals INSIDE over winter, they are then totally reliable on you for their food and water. Surely then the planners cannot stop you from needing to be their 24 hours when you are snowed in, because of animal welfare.

Regards
KChally

Hi KChally - that is exactly the point I am making...... unfortunately the welfare guidelines came AFTER my full planning application. That is the reason why I pointed it out on the forum. I fully intend taking the relevant bullet points of use when I face a "challenge" from those who should be obeyed!

In my case it is even more relevant because my animals winter out - the cattle troughs need ice breaking with sledgehammer twice a day!

Keep smiling everyone!

[happymanoftheworld]

I think I'll have to give this one a miss and put a sign up to say migratory birds and orphan animals welcome or something to that effect.

Ho! We have plenty enough migratory birds - and plumbers thank you!

Anyway Mil... where's the pioneer spirit - we may not beat them, but imagine the feeling when you can say "check........ mate". Your water problem may be much more simply rectified..... consider these two options -
Option 1 - Cheaper and even could be DIY (unless Health and Safety find out - they are worse than the planners!). First step is to get a special map for your area which details springs and all known old boreholes, and, I think under legislation, any boreholes that have been drilled in the past few years. I do not know what the map is called but I am sure that Dave will know. That is the only criteria on the map so your specific area map will show exactly where the nearest few are. You might be surprised at how close one is. The second step is to find the relevant details of depth of borehole.... I think that info is shown on the map, but if not, I know that the it is available somewhere. I have a thought lurking in what is left of my mind that the map and info is obtainable from the Environmental Protection Agency.

When you have located the nearest.... and bearing in mind if you are uphill or downhill (or even across the hill) you will have an idea of the water table depth. Not 100% accurate, but a probable guideline. The third step depends on the result of the other two..... if water table not neat Australia you sink a well if you cannot afford a borehole. My borehole is 43 metres down and cost £3500 - but I have already saved £800 in water rates.... in England it would have saved more. They wanted to sell me the pumping system - another £3500 and I had to build the building etc. I bought a brand new chinese (I think) pump off ebay at £60, a plont pot holder from the local shop, inverted it, drilled holes, used steel twisted wire and arctic cable and nylon rope as back-up. In a severe drought it produces an unbelieveable 230 gallons per hour. The only problem is the excess aluminium.... but I am working on that Del Boy! Can I detect a green glow from my nether regions?

The well construction I am thinking of is to use those concrete drain pipes with lips (although I think there is a plastic version) but they have to be wide enough to take a person - YOU! (hence avoid health and safety). A digger digs as deep as possible, then as many pipes as possible are put in vertically. Making sure you have at least two helpers with you and rope ladder, body rope, absailing skills etc the idea is to remove soil evenly around from the bottom lip of the lowest pipe so that as you remove the soil, bit by bit the pipe goes lower till the next pipe goes on top. I STRESS THAT THIS SUGGESTION IS AT YOUR OWN RISK AND NOT TO BE TRIED AT HOME!! p.s. you could always show the planners the edge of it when finished. (Anyone ever see a fantastic play about an old farmer versus EU regs.... think it was called "Gert, Daisy" after the cows starring

2. Sorry number 1 option was so long, to make up for it, short option 2. - hire a water bowser, fill it at home each week/day.

Very good luck.

[KChally]

Hi Mil,

Is it possible for you to get water connected? We had no water (or electric or any buildings on our field, not even grass) so we had a pipe put in over a distance of 1/4 of a mile, down the lane. It cost us a bit, but well worth it and makes your land worth more.

I suppose it would depend on what you plan to do with your land ie making a business on it, whether it would be worthwhile or not.

Regards
KChally

[mil6507]

Lovely to get so many replies.

Pig ARKS - The council isn't asking for fees. Dave are you suggesting put in applications every 10 days? It takes the council 10 days to open the envelope. Good thing I am not keeping pigs. Poor neighbour.

With a borewell, I heard someone say near about 15000 so I will have to check if its less than 5k. I live 55 miles from the site and I am on a meter at home so water bowser is out unless I can strike a deal with a local guy. My nearest neighbours are 150 metres away but already on a submeter and not happy to share due to water pressure issues. But I am thinking of approaching them again about the water pipe thing. I might make them an offer they can't refuse.

[KChally]

Hi,

Every new water supply will now be metered. Surely its not upto your neighbours whether they share mains water or not, you need to get in touch with your water authority. It is also the water authorities responsibilty to make sure the water pressure is correct. Why would you need to make your neighbours an offer, its not their decision whether you have water or not.

Am I missing something here or got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Regards
KChally