23 replies to this topic

[jasonp]

we have permission to build a barn, polytunnel (underway) and a hardcore track for our 25 acre farm all done under permitted development.

 

for the first 6 months we put 2 caravans, 1 portacabin and small shipping container on the land as incidential to the land and lived else where.

 

enforcment office visited and not happy but nothing he could do.

 

permsiion granted for barn etc, and we have moved onto the land whilst we build

 

local planners quoted part 5 GPDO and section 9 caravan act 1960.

 

BUT  implied that as permission was for a barn not residential dwelling then there is no lawful residential use at the site.and that this would require an agricultural apprasial

 

i am sure i am right in saying that as we have permision for building the barn etc, ie development and engineering then para 9 1960 caravan act is correct and fits the bill correctly,and that we can live here whislt we develop

 

strongly feel more planning lies and deciete from LPA

 

regards

 

Jason

[elegantstorm]

Yes, planning for the barn etc does not including planning for a caravan to live in, but one of the exemptions to the caravan act - i.e. when planning permission is not needed to locate a caravan (or mobile home) is when it is housing people who are actively involved in building/mining/engineering works for which you do have planning, which you do.  Hence as long as you personally are building the barn etc then you are allowed to live onsite whilst you are carrying out these works.

[elegantstorm]

Our planners tried to say the same thing to us, residential is a change of use and the exemption only applies when you are building a residential house you can have a residential caravan - but it is written in black and white 'building, mining, engineering works' (assuming you have a copy of the book) and it does not in any way shape or form specify 'building works for a domestic dwelling' nor are there any annexes/notes attached to the exemption.  Whilst you are building you can live in the temp mobile home.  Because we have a portacabin as an office and store (which should have permission as been here over 28 days and connected to services) the LPA have got confused and think that's residential also, and so have said that we need to justify having two 'caravans' to facilitate the building of the barn etc, but we've pointed out that there's only one caravan here.  I'm not sure how the portacabin now stands under operational development because it's now been here over 5 years, but we're looking to move it anyway and replace with a attractive log cabin in a more discreet location if we can get the planning sorted for that.

[boiow]

you are not residential.   You are merely 'staying there' whilst  engaged in building and engineering works.  The term 'residential' is a legal term that is used to denote a class of land.  Whilst you can legally 'stay' on land subject to certain criteria.  One of the advantages of 'staying' on land is you do not have to pay council tax, because that only applies if the land is residential.

[mayesemma]

Hi  ya really feeling for you guys on this one we too are in a simialr situation however our piece of land is significantly smaller. We only have 3.5 acres but do have 'full planning permission' for a barn to be built from rammed earth tyres and a mobile home to be used for agricultural use. We are also stting up a business on the lnd for 'care farming' or farm therapy. We have since moved onto the land to start work n the barn and complete the facilities needed for the business however we have had a contrivention notice from the councils solicitors and now awaiting an enforcement notice.

Works on the barn have been delyed due to hold ups in applying for enviroment helath permits to store tyres and we also need dry earth to ram the tyres. Kinda stuck and dunno what to do or where we stand??????? Its quite hard work to say the least!!!!

I was just going to reply to the solicitors and call thier bluff informing them (very politely) that I am also seeking legal advice and will look to appeal any enforcement action. Any advice would be grateful. Glad to know I am not the only one struggling. Hope all goes well for you guys x

[mayesemma]

you are not residential.   You are merely 'staying there' whilst  engaged in building and engineering works.  The term 'residential' is a legal term that is used to denote a class of land.  Whilst you can legally 'stay' on land subject to certain criteria.  One of the advantages of 'staying' on land is you do not have to pay council tax, because that only applies if the land is residential.

We have been issued a council tax bill for our site too!!!!!!! Dunno what this means???????

[boiow]

Hi  ya really feeling for you guys on this one we too are in a simialr situation however our piece of land is significantly smaller. We only have 3.5 acres but do have 'full planning permission' for a barn to be built from rammed earth tyres and a mobile home to be used for agricultural use. We are also stting up a business on the lnd for 'care farming' or farm therapy. We have since moved onto the land to start work n the barn and complete the facilities needed for the business however we have had a contrivention notice from the councils solicitors and now awaiting an enforcement notice.

Works on the barn have been delyed due to hold ups in applying for enviroment helath permits to store tyres and we also need dry earth to ram the tyres. Kinda stuck and dunno what to do or where we stand??????? Its quite hard work to say the least!!!!

I was just going to reply to the solicitors and call thier bluff informing them (very politely) that I am also seeking legal advice and will look to appeal any enforcement action. Any advice would be grateful. Glad to know I am not the only one struggling. Hope all goes well for you guys x

 

 

 

 

   what exactly does the contravention notice say.   Change of use ?

[boiow]

We have been issued a council tax bill for our site too!!!!!!! Dunno what this means???????

 

 

   I would ask them on what justification they have sent you a council tax bill. 

[jasonp]

My Husband is doing the building of the barn etc, I am registered disabled and in a wheelchair.  On the farm I can do planting/reaping crops in the polytunnel and tending the veggie plot.

 

With regards to the building of the barn, I could be ordering parts and arranging deliveries.  I can drive the UTV which has a tipper back so can transport soil dug out/materials etc.

 

My Husband is my carer.

 

Am I entitled to live in the caravan with My Husband while he builds the barn, do anyone envisage any problems that we need to head off?

[boiow]

My Husband is doing the building of the barn etc, I am registered disabled and in a wheelchair.  On the farm I can do planting/reaping crops in the polytunnel and tending the veggie plot.

 

With regards to the building of the barn, I could be ordering parts and arranging deliveries.  I can drive the UTV which has a tipper back so can transport soil dug out/materials etc.

 

My Husband is my carer.

 

Am I entitled to live in the caravan with My Husband while he builds the barn, do anyone envisage any problems that we need to head off?

 

 

 

    Of course you are allowed to live with your husband.  This is not Stalins russia.  I would love it if the council said that you were not allowed to be with your other half.  Any judge in the land would throw a fit and award you compensation by the bucketload.

[mayesemma]

Hi cheers for the advice the contrivention notice is us living in the caravan they say we have changed its use to residential with out permission

[Groundhog]

A  letter quoting the relevant caravan acts legislation and confirm no change of use to residential should be sent.You are staying there not living there.

In the forum Legislation the first post by che is the caravan act,open it up and read.Exemptions Engineering and building works"Its In Black and White".LPA's seem to have the ability to put the fear of god into people with PCN and enforcement threat,they are not the Police you wont get locked up ! You do not need the express permission of the LPA to use a mobile structure its legislation !

[Groundhog]

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[jasonp]

have sent to LPA a letter of complain, there first level was section head so went tto the planning head, didnt expect anything more than lies, resent letter to corparatte director level and enclosed the above legislation and a whole lot more, the first complaintt was returned late in breach of their own code of conduct and contained proof of other lies and breaches of their own codes, i shall keep you posted

[melbee]

Blimey, you'd think we were trying to roast children for breakfast, not grow organic food for local communities and reduce our carbon footprint. )

 

Quick query: we are living on mixed rough grazing, woodland, orchard and forest garden land (13 acres) that belongs to my step father who lives here also with my mother. They grow food they have been seling on a stall for some years, and want to work with us increase what they're growing and selling, including to a local farm shop who is very interested in selling our fruit and veg. They have both had heart problems (including getting airlifted by helicopter in the last for years) and mum has a range of health problems, and we are here to support them and help them remain in their home; to develop the business;  and to reduce our own carbon impact as a family (I have two children).

 

My step dad has been here in the house he built for over 25 years and the council now see him as immune. We built an off grid timber dwelling here two years ago, and planning became aware in the last 12 months. They're coming back on site again next week (ie enforcement). They don;t seem bent on extracting blood, but more want to "cover their position" as we're halfway through the "immunity" period. (their words). We know they don;t like the timber dwelling (it was a replacement for a falling down barn); if we'd seen your book we'd have done it differently, but all advice we foind then said low impact dwelling for permacultural actvity is best built first and permission asked afterwards.

 

We are planning to use your model here and inform them with a 28 day notice that we will be either altering this to return it to agrcultural use, build a polytunnel for growing more food to sell and possibly an outdoor classroom for small scale forestry and horticulture training on the land.

 

Q: would we be advised to "buy" ie for a peppercorn say 1.5 hectares and rent another 4 hectares from my stepdad, to do this? ie does his ownership of the land damage our tack of using the 28 day notice to say we plan to build a barn to further the activity of the planned enterprise? he's very open to whatever needs to happen - we're a family trying to stay together. And should we get an agricultural holding number? We were advised it makes no difference either way, but I'm thinking it might help.

 

Amy thoughts welcome!

 

Cheers!

[melbee]

Sorry - should have said that we'll be building a mobile home to STAY in whilst we do the building. Seems utterly ridiculous that we can live in a mobile home on the same land as the timber building we've been living in for two years, but can't live in the building. But hey ho. We've ben paying council tax too - we ensured we WERE charged as we felt it right - but now we might have to NOT pay if we move into a new mobile home? Is that right??

Thanks,

M

[boiow]

Blimey, you'd think we were trying to roast children for breakfast, not grow organic food for local communities and reduce our carbon footprint. )

 

Quick query: we are living on mixed rough grazing, woodland, orchard and forest garden land (13 acres) that belongs to my step father who lives here also with my mother. They grow food they have been seling on a stall for some years, and want to work with us increase what they're growing and selling, including to a local farm shop who is very interested in selling our fruit and veg. They have both had heart problems (including getting airlifted by helicopter in the last for years) and mum has a range of health problems, and we are here to support them and help them remain in their home; to develop the business;  and to reduce our own carbon impact as a family (I have two children).

 

My step dad has been here in the house he built for over 25 years and the council now see him as immune. We built an off grid timber dwelling here two years ago, and planning became aware in the last 12 months. They're coming back on site again next week (ie enforcement). They don;t seem bent on extracting blood, but more want to "cover their position" as we're halfway through the "immunity" period. (their words). We know they don;t like the timber dwelling (it was a replacement for a falling down barn); if we'd seen your book we'd have done it differently, but all advice we foind then said low impact dwelling for permacultural actvity is best built first and permission asked afterwards.

 

We are planning to use your model here and inform them with a 28 day notice that we will be either altering this to return it to agrcultural use, build a polytunnel for growing more food to sell and possibly an outdoor classroom for small scale forestry and horticulture training on the land.

 

Q: would we be advised to "buy" ie for a peppercorn say 1.5 hectares and rent another 4 hectares from my stepdad, to do this? ie does his ownership of the land damage our tack of using the 28 day notice to say we plan to build a barn to further the activity of the planned enterprise? he's very open to whatever needs to happen - we're a family trying to stay together. And should we get an agricultural holding number? We were advised it makes no difference either way, but I'm thinking it might help.

 

Amy thoughts welcome!

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

     i think this warrants a new thread.?

   Anyway as far as i am aware you are allowed to live with your stepfather in 'overspill accomodation'  (  ie mobile home) If the house is classed as residential.  It sounds as though the house is immune from enforcement and so you have accrued residential rights as a matter of course.  The only proviso is that you must share certain facilities with house.  I would say that you are sharing the kitchen .

[melbee]

Apologies for not starting a new thread.

 

Thanks for this. So...we can share their kitchen in their house (or explain that we are) without having to quote the caravan act? And then carry out works on the land as required under permitted development? Which means we can suggest we are going to change the use of the timber building to a barn, in due course, rather than have to demolish it (which would be daft as then we could just build it again under PD, causing unnecessary disruption to neighbours?)

[boiow]

Apologies for not starting a new thread.

 

Thanks for this. So...we can share their kitchen in their house (or explain that we are) without having to quote the caravan act? And then carry out works on the land as required under permitted development? Which means we can suggest we are going to change the use of the timber building to a barn, in due course, rather than have to demolish it (which would be daft as then we could just build it again under PD, causing unnecessary disruption to neighbours?)

  

 

     Yes. you don't have to quote caravan act nor do you have a 5 year time limit.  As long as you are residing within the curtilage of the main house.

[melbee]

OK. And in order to invoke PD, does the land have to have an agricultural holding number? My step dad has been planting trees and selling produce from the land for two and a half decades, but is there a chance they can say it's not agricultural? (I don;t know what else it would be).

 

Cheers,

 

Manda