31 replies to this topic

[KChally]

Hi RichardD,

Just a quick question, are you by any chance connected to a planning department like a previous forum member Wiseowl? You do seem very knowlegeable regarding planning matters and have an "ease" about the way you put things. I have to say though, that you are not negative like Wiseowl was, in fact quite the opposite which is great. Hope you dont mind me asking and I fully understand and respect your privacy if you prefer not to reply.

KChally

[RichardD]

Hi KChally,
I don't know about "wise owl" (we do we get all these names from?) perhaps I could be called "rare breed" I am (presently) an enforcement planner - I am on no crusade, nor do I have any intention to overly criticise or in any way undermine this forum, which i believe, is in a particularly useful position to help those who genuinely aspire to engage in a sustainable, productive agricultural enterprise.

Sadly the "planning system" and a substantial amount of those employed in local authority planning departments aren't at all encouraging where the use of land involves living on it - in fact the entire planning system is in my humble opinion obstructive, cumbersome and very difficult to navigate for all but the most minor of development proposals (right I'll get off my soap-box) except to say that I have read some posts where it appears to me that there are those that - shall we say - are not genuine in their aspirations other than to avoid taking a proper approach and are trying to manipulate their way to a short cut route for personal gain - there is a system to engage with, it's not a great system but it can be a good system if everyone plays their part for the good of the land and it's use - which, if genuine and properly thought out, should be welcomed and encouraged by everyone.

So. I deal with these issues on a regular basis and come across both good, bad and in some cases diabolical flagrant mis-use (hence the general suspicision and negative attitude of some LPA officers) - but I'll also say this; where there is a planning application that is well prepared and properly presented and the applicant has undertaken the torturous route to "play the game" in the right way, then it is my experience that planning officers are supportive - but they need to be engaged.

Hope that's "cleared the air" a bit - I'd like to think that genuine people may consider my advice or criticism's objectively - I do understand that some see it as "necessary" to try and get round the system and not quite tread the difficult path that is the planning system, and in many cases they don't need to because there are uses and development that does not require planning permission (as the F2F book illustrates - although I've not read it yet) - the problem lies in the interpretation of the regulations and some people, including planners - and at times, myself - find that difficult.




PS; is there a spell check on this thing?

[KChally]

Hi RichardD,

Thank you for your honesty. It would appear from some posts on this forum that some planning officers are not that honest, but in my particular case I have not come across this problem too much. I have to agree with you on what you say with regard to the planning system. My hubby has also said that we have to "play the game". We are not following the F2F route as we only have 6 acres, but we have gone about things in the correct way (for the most part) as we dont have pd rights. We are infact almost at the end (hopefully) of our journey as our application for a permanent agri workers dwelling is going to committee on 28 March. In attendance will be our agricultural consultant, planning consultant and ourselves.

I have said on previous posts that there is no short cut and you should really follow the rules. Even after following the F2F route which I can see is workable, you still have to satisfy all the planning PPS7 guidelines to enable a permanent dwelling. Some people will be able to do this themselves, but we decided to engage professionals, at a large cost I might add, to work on our behalf as we needed to concentrate on our business. In doing this we hope that the LPA will take us seriously and look on our application favourably. As you said, our application was well prepared and properly presented and we have undertaken the tortuous route to "play the game" in the right way, so hopefully things will work out for us.

I myself welcome your advice or criticisms as you appear to be a genuine chap, but I think some others on this forum may not. What is the saying "dont tar everyone with the same brush"

I dont know if there is a spell check, but I cannot find any misspellings in your post, so I shouldnt worry lol.

KChally

[Cornish Gems]

Hi - we have a spell check for our postings and edits - Don't know whether it makes any difference but we sign on through Firefox and it comes up automatically. Our only complaint is that it is US and not UK.

[RichardD]

Thanks CG, although at the moment I'm using IE9 (Windows Pro 64bit) and that doesn't appear to throw up a spell check, never mind.

And thank you KChally, I sincerely wish you good fortune (it's not about luck or shouldn't be) with your application - I'd also like to see it online and if you (private message?) tell me the application number and which local authority is dealing with it I could look it up - if approved it will come with planning conditions (so you'll need to exercise a little caution so that you do not breach any of those) - if refused DON'T DESPAIR!! as there will be reasons for refusal which can, and in some cases should, be challenged, overcome those reasons and resubmit or take the matter to appeal - hopefully you've been given some indication whether your application is recommended for approval or not (and that should be in the officer report to committee).

I also recognise that there are those that try to avoid the planning application route, all I'll say on that is people are responsible for their own actions, no excuses!! it's a tricky game to play - but sometimes can pay off - at the end of the day though unauthorised development or use (which is harmful) should be stopped.

In my experience most people who are genuine, and who have made a start without planning approval, and then find out that it is required (if it is!?) do whatever is necessary to "do it right" and yes unfortunately it does seem to be disproportionately expensive to engage someone to act on your behalf - although with a lot of personal effort you could do it yourself - find someone who has a similar scheme already approved and emulate that.

I never tar everyone with the same brush - it's each case on it's merits and I take that approach even when there's a "technical planning breach" that can and should be overcome. All the the best...

[che]

Hi RichardD.
Thanks for being honest and it really is not a problem that you are an enforcement officer. Your input is valued and we too despair at chancers who give us all a bad name and merely make things more difficult for genuine cases.
PS Wiseowl chose his own name and was a different kettle of fish to yourself. Nice to see such an enlightened attitude from an EO No idea where you are from but pretty sure it is not Shropshire

[RichardD]

Thanks Che, nope not Shropshire (but give my regards to Telford!!)

[KChally]

Hi RichardD,

Thanks for your interest, but just at present I want to keep our application private as I dont want to tempt fate. When all is over I will give further details of our application.

I have found out from our planning consultant that our planning officer is making a recommendation of approval, which is definitely good news. I suppose he had to really, as when we had our pre-app meeting his view was changed from a definite no at the beginning to "ok go ahead and make your application and it is likely that officers will support it".

I really am hoping the planning committee approve it and we dont have to go to appeal. It really is a very tiring thing to have to go through. It is not easy trying to make a success of your business and also worry about whether you will end up with somewhere to live. At the end of the day if we are refused they are actually putting us out of business aswell. This is my hubbys full time job and I hope the committee will be aware of this. We will not be able to carry on if we are enforced against and have to move off our land.

What are your thoughts on this, as someone in the know, so to speak.

KChally

[RichardD]

Hi KChally

I know its easy for me to say but - be positive and hold your nerve, planning committee's are a curious lot, for the most part it appears to me that they can disregard professional officer advice (which is backed by sound agricultural (in this case) expertise) in favour of their own local political agenda - totally corrupt in their attitude and in my opinion that brings the planning system into disrepute - Sometimes though, and depending on how your application is presented at committee both by yourself and your representatives and indeed the planning officer who is making the recommendation, they will be more positive - with a recommendation of approval though from the planning officer any refusal by committee has got to be on a very sound basis otherwise they know they will probably.... lose any appeal ... and sometimes the particular ward member will be prepared for that to happen so that he can say to his electoral masters (who vote him/her in/out of office) that at least he tried to have it refused - (sadly that's the political beast I'm afraid).

Although I have no idea of your scheme I am encouraged by the officer recommendation for approval, so take heart from that and let's hope you don't need to worry about making any appeal - if you keep me posted I'll offer as much help as I'm able (once I see the detail) if I don't hear from you I'll take it you've been successful and therefore I'll wish you every success now.

Richard

[KChally]

Hi RichardD,

Thanks for your comments and we are definitely trying to be positive and hold our nerve, although with your comments regarding the planning committee having their own agenda (re re-election) I think I will be worrying even more. I cannot understand how they can disregard the professional opinions of the planning officer and our consultants as they are the experts, not this bunch of councillors who will make the decision.

Your comment of "totally corrupt in their attitude" is very worrying, not just for our application but for others aswell. We have been hard working and honest about what we are trying to achieve and have followed all the rules and regulations as was required of us (ie pps7 etc) aswell as it all costing us a fortune in trying to do the application correctly. I would have thought all this would be apparent to the committee and therefore they should make their judgement accordingly.

I am not a naive person and am fully aware of how corrupt this whole country really is ( a bit of a sweeping statement Im afraid) but you are so right about these councillors, who are really only in it for their own gain, although it does seem that our local councillor is supporting our application. She wants to come and visit our farm so she knows what she is talking about, she says. Our local parish council are a bunch of idiots and we are hoping to "sort them out" when we have the time.

We are definitely up against it and there have been many times when we have thought lets sell up and move away, but we have to carry on as it is our living. Oh well, time will tell.....Thanks for your good wishes

KChally

[KChally]

Sorry, forgot to ask, do all of the planning committee have to be in favour or is it a majority vote? I forgot to ask our planning consultant this question the other day. Thanks

KChally

[RichardD]

Last things first - it's a majority vote with sometimes the Chairman having to cast the decider. And it's good that your local Councillor is on side - hopefully you may have also had other letters of support and even, dare I suggest, letters of intent from potential customers, with that and the officer recommendation for approval I'd be encouraged to be more positive than not (honestly!)

As you say, there are some sweeping generalisations in all our criticisms (regarding "corrupt"; and by that I mean morally not necessarily all the Councillors, all the time) and yes, unless there are some agricultural experts on the planning committee or unless any of them have (unlikely) sought a second qualified opinion, then one must question their competence to decide such matters - hence the appeals procedure, thank goodness.

And watch out for the Localism Bill! (setting aside the potential for even greater legal challlenge) image a system where planning applications are now dealt with summarilry by parish councils (oh no, not in my back yard...) there are a lot of parish councillors no doubt rubbing their hands in glee at the potential and I think the government is being utterly niave in their aspiration for "community led planning" it weill be rife!! BUT.... once the legal consequences and personal liability issues are explained perhaps they'll be a little more circumspect - the lawyers and planning consultants will be the one's to profit.

Having said all that I should (must really) also add that I have no doubt that some Councillors become so for all the right reasons and genuinely approach things in an even mannered responsible way.

I've no knowledge of your application or land use aspirations but I believe that,as you've put yourself "through the wringer" and no doubt paid through the nose for the privilage to see this through, then you're intentions are genuine and on that basis you should be given the opportunity to do so.

Sorry if I've caused unnecessary worry - trouble is I usually say out loud things that people have in their mind anyway, I think it needs to be seen for what it is and then rationalised that "right" will prevail. and I'm sure it will in your case.