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Rare Breeds can be viable, we checked out some info with our local butcher and he suggested that we could get 30% or better for rare breed pork over the deadweight for commercial pork.
Phill
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Rare Breeds and their viability
Started By
Cornish Gems
, 09 Aug 2010 15:25
#1
Posted 09 August 2010 - 15:25
Cornish Gems
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- Book Owners
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Lord and Lady of the Manor
- LocationCornwall (formerly Devon)
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#2
Posted 09 August 2010 - 15:51
Cornish Gems
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- Book Owners
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Lord and Lady of the Manor
- LocationCornwall (formerly Devon)
Phil the point I am making is "How Much" are you going to make,a Soay lamb will not finish and its final deadweight would not cover the costs.I am all for breeds in decline but you have to make them into a Niche end product to get a return,thats why they are in decline you cant make money out of them Regards Derek
Derek,
If you have checked out Monty Dons my Dream Farm last year you would have heard heim suggest to a smallholder that they change their commercail breed pigs for a rare breed.
People are willing to pay that little bit more for tasty meat they are tired of the washed out flavours that they are getting with supermarket meat. That is why 'organics' are so popular in that people are tired of the bland tasting vegetables and fruit, Pick Your Own has increased over the past 10 years and not just the strawberry but most other berries, such as raseberries, blueberries and currants, unfortunately the humble gooseberry is in decline this is due to the fact that it is not a fruit you can pick and eat straight away.
Rare breeds are ideal for the smallholder as he can deal direct with the local butcher and between them they can fix a good rate. Local produce is the in thing now.
Rare breeds came about not because of the cost to raise but the fact that mos rare breeds do not breed as fast as commercial animals, take pigs the normal litter from a rare breed is between 4-6 dependant on the breed where by the commercisl sow will have 10 or more, this has been the main reason the animals have been bred to cater for the masses.
The same applies to rare sheep, the current commercial sheep were not originally bred for their meat but for their wool when we had a woollen industry, as that declined we had to rebreed these sheep for food production the rare beeds had been decimated due to the woool industry as their fleece was not as heavy or as fine, they were a all round breed reasonable fleece and good eating so the whole sheep was used. Teh sheep we bred for wool was under all that fleece a skinny boney thing, so as we started to fatten them for food we lost the texture fo the meat along with the flavour. This is why we need the rare breeds they taste better but you can check with the local butcher what they prefer to sell and work with them.
Beef is the same in that we have gone for animals the have heavy body weight and able to produce more meat than rare breeds however we have sacrificed taste for mass production.
Phill
Derek,
If you have checked out Monty Dons my Dream Farm last year you would have heard heim suggest to a smallholder that they change their commercail breed pigs for a rare breed.
People are willing to pay that little bit more for tasty meat they are tired of the washed out flavours that they are getting with supermarket meat. That is why 'organics' are so popular in that people are tired of the bland tasting vegetables and fruit, Pick Your Own has increased over the past 10 years and not just the strawberry but most other berries, such as raseberries, blueberries and currants, unfortunately the humble gooseberry is in decline this is due to the fact that it is not a fruit you can pick and eat straight away.
Rare breeds are ideal for the smallholder as he can deal direct with the local butcher and between them they can fix a good rate. Local produce is the in thing now.
Rare breeds came about not because of the cost to raise but the fact that mos rare breeds do not breed as fast as commercial animals, take pigs the normal litter from a rare breed is between 4-6 dependant on the breed where by the commercisl sow will have 10 or more, this has been the main reason the animals have been bred to cater for the masses.
The same applies to rare sheep, the current commercial sheep were not originally bred for their meat but for their wool when we had a woollen industry, as that declined we had to rebreed these sheep for food production the rare beeds had been decimated due to the woool industry as their fleece was not as heavy or as fine, they were a all round breed reasonable fleece and good eating so the whole sheep was used. Teh sheep we bred for wool was under all that fleece a skinny boney thing, so as we started to fatten them for food we lost the texture fo the meat along with the flavour. This is why we need the rare breeds they taste better but you can check with the local butcher what they prefer to sell and work with them.
Beef is the same in that we have gone for animals the have heavy body weight and able to produce more meat than rare breeds however we have sacrificed taste for mass production.
Phill
#3
Posted 10 August 2010 - 09:21
KChally
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- Book Owners
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Farmer Giles
Hi Phill,
I agree with Derek, it will be extremely difficult to make a living out of rare breed pigs by selling them to your butcher. Here are a few facts and figures. I know these to be correct as we are farming rare breed pigs and have to sell the meat ourselves.
If you sell a rare breed cutter to your butcher at say 76kg finished dead weight for £2 per kg you get £152. To get this animal to weight will cost you approx £100 (feed & bedding), not including water, worming and vet bills - you will have these at some point. So you make £52.
To reach say £15k per year you will have to do 294 pigs per year or 5 - 6 per week ie £152 x 294 pigs = £44688 less what it cost to do them ie £44688 - £29400 (£100 x 294 pigs) = £15288
What you have actually made out of them is £52 each, so £52 x 294 pigs = £15288 and dont forget your tax bill!!
How many sows/gilts will you need to have to produce this sort of income - lots. Then there is the problem of not getting them in pig cos you will have barren ones. The above figures also do not take into account the cost of feeding your breeding stock including the boar. Is this enough to build your house with?
Now, butchers are very fussy. You have to have the correct backfat 10 - 15mm, any less or more will affect the price you get.
Also consider the cost of reseeding your land after the mess the pigs have made. The list is endless.
Im sorry but it is not as easy as people think it is. We are aiming at 20 sows/gilts at least to make enough to build our home.
We sell direct to the customer which in itself is another headache, but we have to do it to make the money. This involves advertising, marketing, etc.
You have to be 150% determined and focus on nothing else. We have got our temporary permission and are living in a mobile home working on our financial test. So good luck if you go ahead.
Regards
K Chally
I agree with Derek, it will be extremely difficult to make a living out of rare breed pigs by selling them to your butcher. Here are a few facts and figures. I know these to be correct as we are farming rare breed pigs and have to sell the meat ourselves.
If you sell a rare breed cutter to your butcher at say 76kg finished dead weight for £2 per kg you get £152. To get this animal to weight will cost you approx £100 (feed & bedding), not including water, worming and vet bills - you will have these at some point. So you make £52.
To reach say £15k per year you will have to do 294 pigs per year or 5 - 6 per week ie £152 x 294 pigs = £44688 less what it cost to do them ie £44688 - £29400 (£100 x 294 pigs) = £15288
What you have actually made out of them is £52 each, so £52 x 294 pigs = £15288 and dont forget your tax bill!!
How many sows/gilts will you need to have to produce this sort of income - lots. Then there is the problem of not getting them in pig cos you will have barren ones. The above figures also do not take into account the cost of feeding your breeding stock including the boar. Is this enough to build your house with?
Now, butchers are very fussy. You have to have the correct backfat 10 - 15mm, any less or more will affect the price you get.
Also consider the cost of reseeding your land after the mess the pigs have made. The list is endless.
Im sorry but it is not as easy as people think it is. We are aiming at 20 sows/gilts at least to make enough to build our home.
We sell direct to the customer which in itself is another headache, but we have to do it to make the money. This involves advertising, marketing, etc.
You have to be 150% determined and focus on nothing else. We have got our temporary permission and are living in a mobile home working on our financial test. So good luck if you go ahead.
Regards
K Chally
#4
Posted 10 August 2010 - 11:38
Thegreatescaper
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- Book Owners
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- 80 posts
Turkey
- LocationMid Essex
Hi,
My suggestion would be to do as I hope to do. Diversify. Making money from commercial farming (monoculture, only growing/raising one product) is very difficult hence so many people are leaving the industry. I am studing permaculture (growing/raising a wide veriety of produce in such a way that they compliment each other, i.e.; waste vegetable products can be fed to your pigs etc) as this makes working your land much more productive. In addition to this as you sell your products yourself you will be able to provide your existing customer base with a wider range of products therefore less advertising would be required, as you make more money per customer. Other doing this often offer a 'basket service' whereby they purchase a small hamper of meat, eggs, cheese and vegetables regularly. This offers convienence for the customer, and you can offer a slight reduction in the total cost as your adverising costs fall and the econonmics of scale apply.
Best of luck
Thegreatescaper
My suggestion would be to do as I hope to do. Diversify. Making money from commercial farming (monoculture, only growing/raising one product) is very difficult hence so many people are leaving the industry. I am studing permaculture (growing/raising a wide veriety of produce in such a way that they compliment each other, i.e.; waste vegetable products can be fed to your pigs etc) as this makes working your land much more productive. In addition to this as you sell your products yourself you will be able to provide your existing customer base with a wider range of products therefore less advertising would be required, as you make more money per customer. Other doing this often offer a 'basket service' whereby they purchase a small hamper of meat, eggs, cheese and vegetables regularly. This offers convienence for the customer, and you can offer a slight reduction in the total cost as your adverising costs fall and the econonmics of scale apply.
Best of luck
Thegreatescaper
#5
Posted 10 August 2010 - 12:13
KChally
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Farmer Giles
Hi Thegreatescaper,
Diversification is correct, but we need to remember that we have to convince the planners that we are serious about what we are doing, so a core business is essential!!!. When we move our pigs onto different ground we plant spuds to utilise the nitrogen rich soil. A bit of this and a bit of that may not convince them.
With regard to advertising you can never do enough. This ideal of people coming to buy your products on a regular basis is rubbish, you may get the odd few who have ethics and will make the effort to come to you, but the vast majority will just go to their nearest shop ie Tesco, Asda etc. These huge corporations have made it too easy for the public. We have to go out there and sell our products. We do and it is not easy.
I am thinking of opening a farm shop but am under no illision that this will make my fortune. Doing a box scheme is a great idea but it costs more for the public to have one, than it does for them to get from the shops. Dont forget there will be a fuel cost for delivery. Your ideas are great in an ideal world but you would have to sell a huge amount of them to make any money. We are in a recesssion and people are cutting back, so in my experience the first thing to go is the box scheme as they are looking to cut costs. And I think next year will be even worse.
Sorry to sound so negative but we all need to be in the real world if our plans are to succeed.
Regards
K Chally
Diversification is correct, but we need to remember that we have to convince the planners that we are serious about what we are doing, so a core business is essential!!!. When we move our pigs onto different ground we plant spuds to utilise the nitrogen rich soil. A bit of this and a bit of that may not convince them.
With regard to advertising you can never do enough. This ideal of people coming to buy your products on a regular basis is rubbish, you may get the odd few who have ethics and will make the effort to come to you, but the vast majority will just go to their nearest shop ie Tesco, Asda etc. These huge corporations have made it too easy for the public. We have to go out there and sell our products. We do and it is not easy.
I am thinking of opening a farm shop but am under no illision that this will make my fortune. Doing a box scheme is a great idea but it costs more for the public to have one, than it does for them to get from the shops. Dont forget there will be a fuel cost for delivery. Your ideas are great in an ideal world but you would have to sell a huge amount of them to make any money. We are in a recesssion and people are cutting back, so in my experience the first thing to go is the box scheme as they are looking to cut costs. And I think next year will be even worse.
Sorry to sound so negative but we all need to be in the real world if our plans are to succeed.
Regards
K Chally
#6
Posted 10 August 2010 - 13:28
surreydodger
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Agricultural Planning Advisory Service
- LocationWest Sussex
Hi all, 
One thing is apparent from all the above,, we will all have our own ideas of how to make our farms come to fruition. Our route is chicken and duck eggs though we will have sheep (to keep the grass short for the chicken and ducks) with pigs down in the woods. Of course, this may all change depending on tomorrows news
Good luck to you all !!
One thing is apparent from all the above,, we will all have our own ideas of how to make our farms come to fruition. Our route is chicken and duck eggs though we will have sheep (to keep the grass short for the chicken and ducks) with pigs down in the woods. Of course, this may all change depending on tomorrows news
Good luck to you all !!
#7
Posted 10 August 2010 - 14:45
KChally
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- Book Owners
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- 371 posts
Farmer Giles
Hi everyone again,
Im sorry if I have upset anyone with my forthright way, I didnt intend to. We are at the moment in the thick of it and in approx 12 months time will have to prove our financial test. This forum is a brilliant place to chat to others and hopefully glean useful info and also pass on some advice from personal experience. This is what I try to do.
Good luck whichever way you try to achieve your goals.
KChally
Im sorry if I have upset anyone with my forthright way, I didnt intend to. We are at the moment in the thick of it and in approx 12 months time will have to prove our financial test. This forum is a brilliant place to chat to others and hopefully glean useful info and also pass on some advice from personal experience. This is what I try to do.
Good luck whichever way you try to achieve your goals.
KChally
#8
Posted 10 August 2010 - 21:00
happymanoftheworld
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- Book Owners
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- 439 posts
Farmer Giles
Hi everyone again,
Im sorry if I have upset anyone with my forthright way, I didnt intend to. We are at the moment in the thick of it and in approx 12 months time will have to prove our financial test. This forum is a brilliant place to chat to others and hopefully glean useful info and also pass on some advice from personal experience. This is what I try to do.
Good luck whichever way you try to achieve your goals.
KChally
Hi Chally - I do not think you have to prove accounts more show accounts........ if proof is needed there are some accountants that take a holistic view if you just take your accounts in, and don't tell them why (under new laws they are OBLIGED to tell on you or they face jail - even if they phoned you to deliver urgent papers and you got there too quickly ..... speeding -ridiculous I know). But check. Good luck
#9
Posted 11 August 2010 - 11:04
Thegreatescaper
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- Book Owners
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- 80 posts
Turkey
- LocationMid Essex
Hi KChally,
If your appology was directed at myself as kind as it would be there is truely no need. We all have different idea's and indeed our cercumstances are all differnt, if this wasn't the case the forum would be of very limited use. Myself am luck enough to live in a very affluent area where the residents can afford to have ethical viewpoints, and it is my genuine feelings that many people feel they can't afford to be ethical. Many people know of my plans alothough I have not yet managed to secure land (I am heading in this direction even if I need to rent land for a while before I can purchase some and go the whole hog and move on) and as such many of them love the idea of a regular supply of well produced local food. Again I am aware that just because people love the idea and say they would buy doesn't mean that anything like they actually will. I also agree that you can't have too much advertising, but you can spend too much on advertising. This is why dave says in his book good road frontage on a busy road is so impotrtant. And don't forget word of mouth is the best advertising there is. Also remember, the internet is your advertising friend, you should have GOOD website and you can advertise it alot for free online these days without spamming (I don't mean e-mail spamming either, there are ways to spam on forums also), and we all hate spamming.
In respect to having a 'core' business, yes I understand we do, however if you read all the relevent papers such as PPS1 and PPS7 you will see that alot of weight is given to ethics and sustainabilty in and enviromental respect therefore I am willing to argue my cause (I understand others may not be).
I understand your stress at this time with having to 'prove' your figures soon, but would agree with happymanoftheworld, you don't need to prove your figures, they would need to disprove them. How can they possibly know what you sell at the farm gate, I assume you don't have a credit card terminal there!
Best of luck
thegreatescaper
If your appology was directed at myself as kind as it would be there is truely no need. We all have different idea's and indeed our cercumstances are all differnt, if this wasn't the case the forum would be of very limited use. Myself am luck enough to live in a very affluent area where the residents can afford to have ethical viewpoints, and it is my genuine feelings that many people feel they can't afford to be ethical. Many people know of my plans alothough I have not yet managed to secure land (I am heading in this direction even if I need to rent land for a while before I can purchase some and go the whole hog and move on) and as such many of them love the idea of a regular supply of well produced local food. Again I am aware that just because people love the idea and say they would buy doesn't mean that anything like they actually will. I also agree that you can't have too much advertising, but you can spend too much on advertising. This is why dave says in his book good road frontage on a busy road is so impotrtant. And don't forget word of mouth is the best advertising there is. Also remember, the internet is your advertising friend, you should have GOOD website and you can advertise it alot for free online these days without spamming (I don't mean e-mail spamming either, there are ways to spam on forums also), and we all hate spamming.
In respect to having a 'core' business, yes I understand we do, however if you read all the relevent papers such as PPS1 and PPS7 you will see that alot of weight is given to ethics and sustainabilty in and enviromental respect therefore I am willing to argue my cause (I understand others may not be).
I understand your stress at this time with having to 'prove' your figures soon, but would agree with happymanoftheworld, you don't need to prove your figures, they would need to disprove them. How can they possibly know what you sell at the farm gate, I assume you don't have a credit card terminal there!
Best of luck
thegreatescaper
#10
Posted 11 August 2010 - 17:13
happymanoftheworld
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Farmer Giles
.......How can they possibly know what you sell at the farm gate, I assume you don't have a credit card terminal there!
Best of luck
thegreatescaper
[/quote]
Ha! The credit card terminal is in the next set of regulations! (by order of Brussels!)..... and of course full-time CCTV for monitoring you don't do cash deals!
Best of luck
thegreatescaper
[/quote]
Ha! The credit card terminal is in the next set of regulations! (by order of Brussels!)..... and of course full-time CCTV for monitoring you don't do cash deals!
#11
Posted 11 August 2010 - 20:54
KChally
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Farmer Giles
[quote name='happymanoftheworld' date='11 August 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1281546826' post='2135']
.......How can they possibly know what you sell at the farm gate, I assume you don't have a credit card terminal there!
Best of luck
thegreatescaper
[/quote]
Ha! The credit card terminal is in the next set of regulations! (by order of Brussels!)..... and of course full-time CCTV for monitoring you don't do cash deals!
[/quote]
Hi,
Yep, big brother is already watching us from up above and our local planning person is probably hiding in the hedge with camera ready to pounce.
Regarding proving our profit, we do have accounts/accountant of course and a lot of it is cash. We are honest and put all thru books cos we need to reach the figures, but not sure that embelleshing them is a good idea cos of tax implications. What do you think?
KChally
.......How can they possibly know what you sell at the farm gate, I assume you don't have a credit card terminal there!
Best of luck
thegreatescaper
[/quote]
Ha! The credit card terminal is in the next set of regulations! (by order of Brussels!)..... and of course full-time CCTV for monitoring you don't do cash deals!
[/quote]
Hi,
Yep, big brother is already watching us from up above and our local planning person is probably hiding in the hedge with camera ready to pounce.
Regarding proving our profit, we do have accounts/accountant of course and a lot of it is cash. We are honest and put all thru books cos we need to reach the figures, but not sure that embelleshing them is a good idea cos of tax implications. What do you think?
KChally
#12
Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:57
Thegreatescaper
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- Book Owners
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- 80 posts
Turkey
- LocationMid Essex
Hi KChally,
I would never advise anything illegal and anything that you chose you should ensure is legal. But I will happily give my personal opinion on this.
Embelishment and or fraud (I know you never said such a word but am offering it as the law is an ass) are perhaps a little strong in my view. Sould you choose to buy something from your farm you are free to do so. You are mearely taking post-tax money and offering it pre-tax again, as you state giving the taxman another bite! Not something I would ever normally dream of doing.
This will have the obvious financial drawback of a slightly higher tax bill for that year. However there is no reason that after planning is granted your income wouldn't slide back down, after all you would have lost a big customer - yourself! So there will be no long term tax implications.
Whether this is worth it depends entirely on;
A) If you can afford the additional tax - You should work this out by working out how much you would need to spend at your gate and what percentage of this will be tax as this is dependant on you personal cercumstances.
If you consider this amount worth paying as an unofficial 'tax' to be able to build what you require.
Best of luck
thegreatescaper
I would never advise anything illegal and anything that you chose you should ensure is legal. But I will happily give my personal opinion on this.
Embelishment and or fraud (I know you never said such a word but am offering it as the law is an ass) are perhaps a little strong in my view. Sould you choose to buy something from your farm you are free to do so. You are mearely taking post-tax money and offering it pre-tax again, as you state giving the taxman another bite! Not something I would ever normally dream of doing.
This will have the obvious financial drawback of a slightly higher tax bill for that year. However there is no reason that after planning is granted your income wouldn't slide back down, after all you would have lost a big customer - yourself! So there will be no long term tax implications.
Whether this is worth it depends entirely on;
A) If you can afford the additional tax - You should work this out by working out how much you would need to spend at your gate and what percentage of this will be tax as this is dependant on you personal cercumstances.
If you consider this amount worth paying as an unofficial 'tax' to be able to build what you require. Best of luck
thegreatescaper
#13
Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:15
Thegreatescaper
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- Book Owners
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- 80 posts
Turkey
- LocationMid Essex
[quote name='happymanoftheworld' date='11 August 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1281546826' post='2135']
.......How can they possibly know what you sell at the farm gate, I assume you don't have a credit card terminal there!
Best of luck
thegreatescaper
[/quote]
Ha! The credit card terminal is in the next set of regulations! (by order of Brussels!)..... and of course full-time CCTV for monitoring you don't do cash deals!
[/quote]
Can see it coming. Bring it on I say. After all my solar/wind generators wont be able to power much so they wont help much with their cctv and mobile reception would be too poor run a cc terminal. Oh dear.
Just like when Barclaycard wrote to me telling me they could no longer accept cash payments towards any credit card balances due to E.U. anti-money laundering laws. I wrote back saying that I understood their posistion but as I don't have a bank account the only way I could pay was cash, so although I am willing to pay you are unwilling to accept, requesting that they send me a letter recognising this fact. The letter I got was to carry on as I always have, paying cash as they 'knew their customer' and this satisfied the relevent E.U. act! All these rules have loopholes, they don't wanna stop themselves doing anything.
.......How can they possibly know what you sell at the farm gate, I assume you don't have a credit card terminal there!
Best of luck
thegreatescaper
[/quote]
Ha! The credit card terminal is in the next set of regulations! (by order of Brussels!)..... and of course full-time CCTV for monitoring you don't do cash deals!
[/quote]
Can see it coming. Bring it on I say. After all my solar/wind generators wont be able to power much so they wont help much with their cctv and mobile reception would be too poor run a cc terminal. Oh dear.
Just like when Barclaycard wrote to me telling me they could no longer accept cash payments towards any credit card balances due to E.U. anti-money laundering laws. I wrote back saying that I understood their posistion but as I don't have a bank account the only way I could pay was cash, so although I am willing to pay you are unwilling to accept, requesting that they send me a letter recognising this fact. The letter I got was to carry on as I always have, paying cash as they 'knew their customer' and this satisfied the relevent E.U. act! All these rules have loopholes, they don't wanna stop themselves doing anything.
