17 replies to this topic

[sodbuster]

I was speaking to someone today and it got me thinking about something that I have never considered before. Perhaps I am missing something?

 

Do you need to have achieved a 3 year temp permission in order to submitt your 3 year accounts? (after the 3 years)

 

Or can you live on your land for 3 years whilst doing the engineering works and building up your agri buisiness and after 3 years if you so choose put in your 3 year final accounts (providing the final year you have made a suitable profit) along with buisiness plan functional justifications etc...

 

In other words can you put in your application for a permanent dwelling without having a 3 year temp permission for an agri dwelling

 

SB

[FCF]

My read on this!

You can put a permanent application in provided you have all the information as laid out Annex A to PPS7 which although you can not quote directly would seem to still meet the broad requirements laid out NPPF paragraph 55 and therefore can be referenced as means of setting out your case in an appropriate and understood format by the Planning Authorities.

 

The  3 year Accounts and being in profit for one of those years clearly showing a future sustainable business being one of the requirements.

 

Is there a reason why you would want to jump to that stage instead of a further 3 years of temporary accommodation to build the business.

 

By the way have you managed to have your family live in the Caravan whilst you are building the barn under a prior notification or other planning permission approved? Any problems?

 

FCF 

[Groundhog]

Been thinking you may have a point and possible but your application would have to be very complex and compeling and I think you would be refused.You would basicaly be applying for an agric workers dwelling,and if they refused you what would you do then ? they might not offer the option of a 3 year temp.You can apply for any planning consent you wish its the probably outcome and consequences if refused.Its an angle I have not considered.Would be interested in any info you aquire.Be interesting if anyone found any applications for an agric dwelling that were successful based on that scenario.Havent really looked at permanent applications and supporting evidence.You may be onto a way to speed up the process

[sodbuster]

HI.

FCF as far as I am concerned the quicker the pressures of any enforcement officer turning up are removed the better.

Regarding family living on site I think it would be better if spouse is helping out in some way- bookwork etc. I dont see how they can object to children as ordinary itinerant workers will have this right. From my own experience "they" dont approve of anything you do, thats their job

 

SB

[Chris1]

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[Chris1]

I believe the family living on site issue, if challenged, could be countered with the human rights act. ie right to live as a family whilst staying on site to carry out engineering works.

[Devon Cream]

I read info about a case where someone near/in the New Forest gained 3year temp and then sold the land at an inflated price and I cannot help but wonder whether this would have been even greater had the permission been full.

 

Hubby and I are not doing this for any reason other than it is what we want to do and the only importance money has is if there is enough to look after the livestock but having said that I can understand that if one is having real difficulties with one or more neighbours then one would like to capitalise on the expenditure made so far so that one can start again somewhere new but what happens if you are turned down on full because I think you would then have probs with applying for 3yr temp intead and having looked at the price that some sellers ask for land with temp I think that I would go for that unless of course I did not want to move but was being pressurised by an EO or 2.

[Darkstar]

The main advantage of the F2F route is that you have additional time before having to apply for your permanent planning permission. That is, 2 years building a barn plus 3 years temporary planning.  At the end of your 3 years temporary you are effectively 5 years into the business rather than three and remember that the size of house you are allowed to build is directly related to the income being generated from the land.  Therefore, if you want to be able to justify a larger house, you need to be making more profit.

[sodbuster]

Hi Do you know what page in F2F 3 year temp planning is mentioned?

 

SB

[Groundhog]

The main advantage of the F2F route is that you have additional time before having to apply for your permanent planning permission. That is, 2 years building a barn plus 3 years temporary planning.  At the end of your 3 years temporary you are effectively 5 years into the business rather than three and remember that the size of house you are allowed to build is directly related to the income being generated from the land.  Therefore, if you want to be able to justify a larger house, you need to be making more profit.

Hang on on i thought the F2F route was you have 5 years(which wont happen) then apply for a 3 year temp ? This appears to be being diluted down thought the statemant was live on your land for 5 years whilst you build your barn ?

[sodbuster]

Hi. Back to 3 year temp permission if I may. I think I have been barking up the wrong tree as some of you may know.The 3 year temp is all now defunct along with the financial and functional tests which disapeared along with PPS7 and anex A . The new PPS makes provisions for an agri dwelling where there is an essential need with no mention of any tests except to say sustainability is NB. Councils may over run old policies for a while but the new policies were not made to be ignored.

 

What the forum now needs are new cases that have been held in the last 12months for applications for agri dwellings so we can see what councils interperate as essential need

 

SB

[Groundhog]

So in fact as of the introduction of the NPPF and  as of infact today you are not barking up the wrong tree with your initial plan!!!!! RESULT,you just may have been when you first read the book and took the plunge.As you say research into recent applications and recent applications that relate to a 3 year temp being given prior,to see how much emphasis is placed on financial return.Information is power.

[KChally]

Even with the NPPF LPA's will still need something to "measure" your application against. The functional need will still be required and as I have said previously they will expect your application to be sustainable. I expect the LPA's definition of "sustainable" will relate to the financial side of your business. So, I dont think much will change and anyone trying to get permission to live on their land permanently MUST make sure you are earning enough money for it to be "sustainable". KChally

[KChally]

I think if you are "staying" on your land whilst carrying out engineering works and then after 3 years put in an application for a permanent dwelling, it would fail. Simply because to gain planning permission for a permanent dwelling your agricultural business has to show that it requires at least 1 full time worker who "needs" to be on site 24 hours. For the engineering works you are carrying out ie mending your barn, you have been allowed to "stay" on the land to do this, not spend this time on your agricultural business. KChally

[Devon Cream]

KC I am not sure that I agree with you 100%.  The reason being that you say 'it requires at least 1 full time worker who "needs" to be on site 24 hours" and then mentioning engineering works.  There are many farmers out there who carry on with their agricultural business whilst doing other things such as mending fences, digging ditches, mending barn roofs, replacing shuttering, etc, etc. The idea is that whilst one is carrying out engineering and building works one is also building up an agricultural business that will have a need for one to continue to be on site 24 hours and hopefully this can be done in the time that the engineering and building works have been taking place.

 

However, you are right to give us a warning as it is obvious from your diary that you have had a hard slog to get to where you are and that is without having to worry about building a barn!

 

I suppose it really depends on what happens after 27 March when the NPPF 12-month timeout period ends, but having got this far I am determined to feel ever hopeful. Hubby and I have discussed this and still cannot make up our minds whether to apply for temp before 27 March or wait and see what the opportunities are after that date,but deep down feel that if we failed to gain 3 year temp then we might be making it difficult for us at a later date.

[KChally]

You will definitely have to have a temporary residential permission for the development of an agricultural business, before putting in your application for an agri workers dwelling, regardless of mending the barn. We know many farmers who do very little farming but they already have their house and are not being judged on whether the business is successful or not. I really dont think it is something that can be got around. We lived in our mobile unlawfully for a while, but the LPA insisted we put in an app for temporary residential. KChally

[Devon Cream]

Sodbuster I think that if we are in a mobile on our land doing building and engineering works then we are not living unlawfully on the land and the idea is surely then to develop an agricultural business whist carrying out said building and engineering works? Then if we time it well building and engineering works will be due to be fully completed when we are ready to submit an application for full planning permission.

 

 

So No I do not think we need to have achieved a 3 year temp permission in order to submit our 3 year accounts.

 

And yes I think we can stay on our land for 3 years if not in fact the 5 years mentioned in the letter saying that prior approval is not required whilst doing the engineering works and building up our agricultural business and after 3 years or more if we so choose put in our 3 year final accounts

 

And yes I think you right that in other words can you put in your application for a permanent dwelling without having a 3 year temp permission for an agricultural dwelling.

 

Indeed, I have assumed that this is what the book is all about.

[surreydodger]

My opinion is this, and I reserve the fact that different local planning areas will not always act in the same way.

 

If you move onto your land on the basis of carrying out building work and comply all along with the requirements of such a procedure, you can then follow one of two routes.

 

Once the building work phase has ended, you can apply for an agricultural dwelling but to achieve this you will have to show it is necessary to live there 24/7. You will also have to demonstrate it is sustainable and this will require a proven business plan or previous accounts showing such.

 

If you have been running a financially viable business whilst doing the building works (as well as fulfilling the functional need to be there 24/7, you could likely get a permanent status. However, if you cannot show financial sustainability, the likelihood is that your planning department will grant a temporary period for you to show such feasibility, i.e. a three year period.

 

Due to the introduction of the NPPF, it is my feeling, rightly or wrongly, that the financial requirement could be argued to a lesser degree prior NPPF, but that is a matter of how the application is presented and your planning department. As we have not yet entered the time of pure NPPF days, there is no real way of determining what will be required yet.

 

Thus we are in a grey period where we don't really know all the answers and neither do the planners. What is clear in the NPPF is an essential need to live on the farm (or the functional test, as per the old days) and that sustainability, although not mentioned in direct relation to rural dwellings, is still a general requirement as shown within the wider context of the NPPF.

 

To get an 'instant' agricultural dwelling to my knowledge, has only been achieved on large scale poultry practices, where tens of thousands of birds are kept and running to a business model with a contract such as those provided for by the major packers,,,, and that sort of practice gets no support from myself.