10 replies to this topic

[barrymoore]

HI Does anyone know what the limitations are on SSSi's ?
Can a piece of sssi land be included within your holding acreage? i.e. to make the numbers up to the 5 hectors?
Can you graze animals on it?
Can you run pigs, chickens of alpacas on it?
regards Derek

[Groundhog]

ssi is a classification of a land area designed to protect flora fauna native species etc.It is still your land it carries thee same holding no it just has limtations on what and when you can do things,in return you recieve a higher level of payment under the SFP scheme.Many SSI areas rely on selective grazing of either bovine or to encourage a good habitat and healthy vegetation by grazing or braken control.So in that respect it could with careful thought be used in the business plan as a benefit and using animals such as Soay Sheep Highland Cattle etc and the extra work involved in ecological management .In reality I doubt that anyone looks at the breakdown of the land areas except if you had something Stonehenge or Great Bustards living there.Any land classified as SSI will have a specific document related to a field no and area and clearly list the limitations

[barrymoore]

Thanks Groundhog, I have been speaking to a lady from Natural England and this is the emails so far
Read them in reverse as I have cut and pasted ie from the botom up
Hi Derek

Those were the figures suggested for winter grazing. The grazing regime would likely be as follows:

March to end of June: up to 0.5LU/ha
July to end of October: up to 1.5LU/ha
November to end of Feb: no grazing, or less than 0.5LU/ha if ground conditions allow

I haven’t seen the site, so I don’t know whether there is any natural tree cover that would suffice. I would not like to erect any structures on the SSSI, as it would lead to localised poaching of the ground, and nutrient enrichment, that would in effect lead to a loss of part of the SSSI. If this is an issue, we may have to review this on site, but I’m not sure there is a way around it really.

Thanks

Charlotte

From: Derek Moore [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 24 April 2012 13:31
To: Rose, Charlotte (NE)
Subject: RE: River Itchen SSSI unit 85

HI Charlotte,
Thank you for getting back to me,
Sorry am a bit confused now, are the figures below for winter grazing? And if so what are the summer grazing guidelines?
Another question is obviously the animals will need a field shelter is that acceptable? A pent roof say 4m x 8 open at the front.
So animals will be Alpacas, Goats, Pigs and maybe some Dexter short leg cows for breading, but not necessary at the same time

Nearly there!
Derek Moore

From: Rose, Charlotte (NE) [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 24 April 2012 08:32
To: Derek Moore
Subject: RE: River Itchen SSSI unit 85

Hi Derek

Yes, if there is a proven demand for educational access by local schools and people with disabilities (i.e. close to a school, letters of support) then we could look at adding this option into the agreement. You would have to carry out at least 4 visits a year, with each visit consisting of at least 6 people and lasting minimum of 2 hours.

According to our records (which are reliant on landowners telling us when they buy/sell SSSI land), it was in private ownership, following sale by Southern Water a few years ago. Since then, it has been unmanaged.

Sorry, capital works are things like fencing, water troughs. There are no payments for mains connections (electricity or water).

I’m afraid I’m not that clear on fishing rights there either. If they’re not sold with the land, then they may still rest with Southern Water, and be leased to possibly Bishopstoke Fishing Club? All fishing rights agreements are different, so they may have rights of access over the land or not. Let me know what your solicitor finds out – I think we probably do hold the details, but they are buried in our paper files from years ago!

Yes, layback land is probably going to be your problem here. As I said, low-level grazing throughout the winter (less than 0.5 livestock unit (LU)/ha (equates to half a dairy cow, or one cow under 2 years; your alpacas would be given an equivalent LU based on their liveweight, e.g. 60kg = 0.1LU) should be ok, but I don’t think that’s going to help you much. We don’t have much land of our own I’m afraid (it’s all confined to National Nature Reserves), and none in your area.

I hope you can find a way forward here – if there is anything else you need, let me know

Charlotte

From: Derek Moore [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 23 April 2012 16:30
To: Rose, Charlotte (NE)
Subject: RE: River Itchen SSSI unit 85

HI Charlotte,
Thank you for getting back to me so quickly, I am at least assured that if I do have a question perhaps in the future, it won’t take too long to get an answer!
I understand your comments below and am now starting to get a picture of how things will go.
A couple more questions:-
I notice on your stewardship statement that you mention visits from schools and colleges and people with disabilities would be welcome and encouraged? To share this habitat.
We were thinking along these lines with our current livestock, where people can view these animals like the Rhea who like I say their natural habitat is very similar to unit 85. It would be great if we could encourage natural animals back onto the land as well. Obviously access may be a problem as I have tried calling Paul at southern water today but without success, I will email him.

Do you know the history of the land and its current owner? What did they do with the land? What animals did they graze? Etc

With reference to Capital Claims what does this mean? Is it help with getting fencing, water, electricity/ mains to the land etc?

At the moment the fishing rights are not with the land. Do you know who holds them and what their access agreements are? Obviously our solicitor will be looking into this.

A problem I can see may raise its head, is if we were to increase out livestock to accommodate the grazing of course where can they all go out of season? Obviously with pigs if we farmed them they need 8 months to get to slaughter weight which is 2 months more than the time scale you are talking about? Or do you guys have land of your own that we could utilise and set up a beneficial grazing system that helps us all out and we could move our animals around?

These are just thoughts and lines of enquiry because before we commit to buy we need to be sure we can make it work

Regards Derek Moore

From: Rose, Charlotte (NE) [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 23 April 2012 15:58
To: Derek Moore
Subject: RE: River itchen SSSI unit 85

Hi Derek

Don’t worry – you wouldn’t be on your own – we would be there throughout the process of setting the agreement up, and then hopefully it wouldn’t be too much trouble from there on in!

Payments are made to the agreement holder (usually the landowner, but could be a tenant) – 6 months payment for options (management of land in a certain way i.e. low stocking density as we discussed) each time, payments in spring/early summer and autumn/winter. Capital works payments can be claimed at any time.

We would have to work out the exact payments, as they would depend on what options you entered the land into, but I would envisage it qualifying for species rich grassland HK7 at £200/ha

As the land would be SSSI, erection of a barn/any building or other permanent structure would result in a loss of the area of the SSSI, so would not be permitted. At the moment we deem the whole of the site restorable.

We could possibly agree suitable management for the land to be used as amenity land, but it would still have to meet the SSSI objectives. So, if using it as a CL, we would still want the land either grazed or cut (not too short, and with cuttings removed), and I guess we would have to limit the number of nights a caravan would be present on the land, as we wouldn’t want patches of species rich grassland destroyed. There is also the issue of towing vehicles getting stuck on wet ground, as we wouldn’t permit hardstanding to be laid I’m afraid

So it’s not a definite ‘no’ but it would probably be tricky!

Thanks

Charlotte

From: Derek Moore [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 23 April 2012 15:34
To: Rose, Charlotte (NE)
Subject: RE: River itchen SSSI unit 85

HI Charlotte,
Nice talking to you this morning.
I followed the link and Wow! That does look complicated, I will of course take a day out and read it.
In the mean time a couple of questions,
Are there payments made to the land owner and are these monthly, yearly ?
If there are payments how much would they be on unit 85?
Would a person be able to erect a barn on the land for storage of animal food etc?
Could the land be open to the public i.e. amenity land? Like say a CL for Caravans?
Thanks in advance

Derek Moore

From: Rose, Charlotte (NE) [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 23 April 2012 09:45
To: [email protected]
Subject: River itchen SSSI unit 85

Dear Derek
Thank you very much for contacting me to discuss your potential purchase of part of unit 85 of the above SSSI. See below for a link to our website for information on Environmental Stewardship – I would suggest that Higher Level Stewardship might be suitable for you.
http://www.naturalen...ls/default.aspx
Once you have finalised your purchase, I would very much welcome the opportunity to discuss the management of the land on site with you.
I look forward to hearing from you
Kind regards
Charlotte
Charlotte Rose
Advisor
Hampshire and Isle of Wight Land Management Team
Natural England
Cromwell House, 2nd Floor
15 Andover Road
Winchester
Hampshire
SO23 7BT

[barrymoore]

this was my reply
HI Charlotte,
DEFFRA Regulations state all animals must have water and shelter at all times amongst other things! Perhaps this is why the land has not been grazed as your rules do not permit it?
So no animals then really?
Regards Derek

[Groundhog]

The reason for no shelters is as she said it increases localised poaching of the ground,you are not permitted to use feed troughs or blocks either for the same reason,there are capital payments as well as annual ones for bracken control which can only be mechanical this includes rolling.Wall or hedge/ditch restoration,track culvert repair.

[barrymoore]

So actualy your just like a park keeper and you have to jump when they say? and all you can say is how high!
umm think I beter think again before buying any

[Groundhog]

Its actually not like that the Natural England guys I have found to be great the idea is you work together,you will actually be left alone they will only get involved if there is a problem and even then its only a non compliance issue which you could address they realise your have to farm it and grant payments make up for lower stocking densities.I managed 600 acres of SSi its actually more like gaurdian ship amd putting something back,when you see the difference you have done over a period of years to rejuevenate something it is rewarding.From a marketing point you can maximise on this,but reality is if your on a budget you may not be able to afford the luxury of this.Look at the price per acre the grant per annum,the returns from sheep and cattle on the stocking densities stipulated,and take it from there

[barrymoore]

Thanks for info, G the land itself runs parallel with a river on one side, there is grasses on it along with bogs with reeds, but it is definatly usable.
you say capital payments what would these be for example?
also what would could you graze on it today I walked it got soaking wet and of course like i say in place it is boggy but there is a good 10 acres that is or can be good.
I did notice a lot of snails on the grass so if I put say alpacas on there they would have to be jabbed for liver fluke.
can any one suggest animals to graze it bearing in mind I would need to make profit.
I was thinking goats, alpacas, dextors ........

[Groundhog]

Simplest thing is just ask for a copy of the agreement all the info will be in there from financial to limitations,also any capitol payments will be listed and the amounts and if they have been carried out already and so been paid out already.Any wet pasture will carry risk of fluke but am sure you already have that covered with your preventative flock health care plan Check you can grazr Alpaccas on it they might say they are not classed as agricultural.It will all be in the agreement Personaly its too restrictive I think unless its cheap you will have a harder job to sell it as well

[barrymoore]

maybe a dumb question, but what if you do not enter into any agreement. do they still have power over you?
they are happy with alpaca, Alpaca are classed as agricultural full stop.
yes am happy with price, it also puts me over 5.5 hec :-)

[Groundhog]

The Ground is classed as SSI so has protected status