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Did anyone else see Countryfile last night? What did you think?
I found it very encouraging that their survey found shoppers were more concerned about the ethical status of what they eat than whether it is organic.
Animal welfare was cited as almost as important a consideration as price when deciding what goes in the shopping trolley.
This is great news for those of us involved in food production and validates our raison d'etre - not that we need it, but it's mud in the eye for the planners who don't believe us, or the bank manager who doesn't think it's possible to farm any other way than commercially, reliant on subsidies to get you through.
I personally would love to register for organic certification but found the cost and admin burden will not be worth the trouble, and this report substantiates that. Sales of Organic food have fallen whereas the ethical market is growing. This is where we need to be, right now at least.
We will be marketing and describing our farm as "following organic principles wherever possible". As long as you don't put Organic with a capital "O" anywhere you aren't breaching any trade descriptions or whatever.
Also relevant and interesting was the little segment on wool products - Deborah Meaden was spot on about customers placing value on knowing the provenance of what they buy. I'm hoping to start selling wool products later this year and I'll be able to tell customers the name of the animal their ball of wool came from and even introduce them in person if they visit the farm!
I found the website doing the wool packaging, ideal for those of you doing mail order anything.
http://www.woollyshe...co.uk/packaging
If you missed it I think it's repeated late one night with sign language, Thursday or Friday, or iPlayer.
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Organic v ethical Countryfile report
Started By
helend
, 06 Feb 2012 08:28
#1
Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:28
helend
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Back to top
#2
Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:23
surreydodger
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Organic production is the only way to go. Sadly, people have jumped on the band wagon and made the price of certification ridiculous and uneconomic. I saw they had the woman who is the current head of the SA,, I bet her wages are 4 to 5 times what any small organic farmer earns and what does she produce !!
Countryfile is my turbulent hour of the week. Half of the program is absoulute dross presented by pretty people and as reflective of the countryside as something you'd find in OK magazine ,,, like I'd know what you'd really find in OK mag. But then the other half of the program can be very representitive and informative. Last night's section on locally produced food was great and the bit on organic might have been good as well only my personal feeling is that John Craven has become such a wet rag these days that there's no chance his reports truly speak out.
Bring back the Farming program is what I say !!
Countryfile is my turbulent hour of the week. Half of the program is absoulute dross presented by pretty people and as reflective of the countryside as something you'd find in OK magazine ,,, like I'd know what you'd really find in OK mag. But then the other half of the program can be very representitive and informative. Last night's section on locally produced food was great and the bit on organic might have been good as well only my personal feeling is that John Craven has become such a wet rag these days that there's no chance his reports truly speak out.
Bring back the Farming program is what I say !!
#3
Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:30
admin
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Littlest Hobo
It might be a good idea to put some interesting TV programs into the calendar
I'm sure there must be stuff on the Sky channels that would be of interest too. I'd say Virgin too but I always imagine people on this forum to live in a caravan i the middle of nowhere - at least a dish on top would be possible
I'm sure there must be stuff on the Sky channels that would be of interest too. I'd say Virgin too but I always imagine people on this forum to live in a caravan i the middle of nowhere - at least a dish on top would be possible
#4
Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:37
surreydodger
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Not always in the middle of nowhere,, sometimes we can be found at the back of beyond 
#5
Posted 06 February 2012 - 17:55
Groundhog
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The reality is that the majority of people have no idea what Organic,ethicaly produced,Red Tractor,Free Range,Barn Reared actually means.The advert on the tv where the chicken rides around on a quad is cracking to paint a picure.Battery cages have been "outlawed" but the replacement is very similar just a bit larger.Supermarket control
#6
Posted 06 February 2012 - 23:09
helend
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Agree with you both in this, and organic has got to be the way, for me I need no other reason than it is so practical, that's how it always used to be done and farming has gone way off course thanks to humanity's quest to better itself, maximise everything, show how clever we are.
groundhog, the thing I can't get my head around is how do you convince big farmers to go over to our non intensive methods, we can show it to be much more profitable, and with far better welfare, so why isn't everyone doing it? All you see is farming getting bigger, more reliant on technology, cows going round on god-damn carousels, insanity! And the government encourages it!
How can farmers be convinced to give consumers what they say they want esp as you say, when Joe Public thinks they are buying it already? It's so twisted, farmers can't really decide for themselves with government subsidies basically dictating what they do depending on where the money's at.
It's something that bothers me, I've been banging on about this stuff to my family for years and I have only just made a breakthrough with my mum about eating local food, seasonally etc - she's got a farm shop just outside her village and she drives past it, then goes another 10 or 15 miles to get to a supermarket! She told me tonight how she bought local lamb and veg from the farm shop for a special meal for some of her family a couple of weeks ago and she was so chuffed, it was so tasty. I'm chuffed too - I can't believe it's finally sunk in.
Where's the smiley face for pulling your hair our?
groundhog, the thing I can't get my head around is how do you convince big farmers to go over to our non intensive methods, we can show it to be much more profitable, and with far better welfare, so why isn't everyone doing it? All you see is farming getting bigger, more reliant on technology, cows going round on god-damn carousels, insanity! And the government encourages it!
How can farmers be convinced to give consumers what they say they want esp as you say, when Joe Public thinks they are buying it already? It's so twisted, farmers can't really decide for themselves with government subsidies basically dictating what they do depending on where the money's at.
It's something that bothers me, I've been banging on about this stuff to my family for years and I have only just made a breakthrough with my mum about eating local food, seasonally etc - she's got a farm shop just outside her village and she drives past it, then goes another 10 or 15 miles to get to a supermarket! She told me tonight how she bought local lamb and veg from the farm shop for a special meal for some of her family a couple of weeks ago and she was so chuffed, it was so tasty. I'm chuffed too - I can't believe it's finally sunk in.
Where's the smiley face for pulling your hair our?
#7
Posted 07 February 2012 - 00:52
Groundhog
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Helen
You say we can show big farmers it is more profitable ! Wrong,big farmers are big for a reason it is their life,livelyhood,profession etc etc.Yes some maybe making money from Organic but far more wont be the costs are too high it is harder to finish stock and achieve yields and any premium has been lost,did you not see the dejected and cheeted look in that farmers face.There is nothing wrong with farming practice using modern methods.Whilst we are on Countryfile there is an example of a farmer on the top of his game Adam is a great advocate for British Farming.Farmers can decide for themselves,subsidy is now area based so what and how they farm depends on the best return,historicaly things were based more on headage payments which encouraged farmers to carry numbers,the old ewe premium worked out you got paid about £13 per head pre annum and stipulated that between a 5 week period each year(from Memory it was a while ago)you had to carry that number so you could claim for 1000 sheep and so long as they were on the holding in that period you got paid,MAFF used to come around and count,what used to happen was people would move their sheep around to friends on the day the inspector came calling !! Nice little day out for the sheep
You say we can show big farmers it is more profitable ! Wrong,big farmers are big for a reason it is their life,livelyhood,profession etc etc.Yes some maybe making money from Organic but far more wont be the costs are too high it is harder to finish stock and achieve yields and any premium has been lost,did you not see the dejected and cheeted look in that farmers face.There is nothing wrong with farming practice using modern methods.Whilst we are on Countryfile there is an example of a farmer on the top of his game Adam is a great advocate for British Farming.Farmers can decide for themselves,subsidy is now area based so what and how they farm depends on the best return,historicaly things were based more on headage payments which encouraged farmers to carry numbers,the old ewe premium worked out you got paid about £13 per head pre annum and stipulated that between a 5 week period each year(from Memory it was a while ago)you had to carry that number so you could claim for 1000 sheep and so long as they were on the holding in that period you got paid,MAFF used to come around and count,what used to happen was people would move their sheep around to friends on the day the inspector came calling !! Nice little day out for the sheep
#8
Posted 07 February 2012 - 07:40
Cornish Gems
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Big Farmers are big for one simple reason, and it is economics, they had to become big at the request of companies such as Tesco's and in order to do so they had to settle for what the likes of the big companies were willing to pay. Companies such as Tesco, Morrisons, Sainsburys etc came big and rich off the broken backs of the countries agricultural industry.
The people we need to educate is the vast majority of consumers, those that are willing to throw away £350m of food stuffs annually that go off or are out of date, they are the ones who want cheap food fast when and where they want it. Not just veggies in season but also when they are not. The farmer is forced by the economies of scale to produce these at a price dictated not by the market place but by the companies that control the market place, Tesco's etc.
If you want to make a stand against the big companies start with the likes of Tesco's boycott them buy from your local corner shop. Our local little shop is cheaper for most of the main commodities than our local Co-op. So bigger is not always best.
There end of rant.
Phill
The people we need to educate is the vast majority of consumers, those that are willing to throw away £350m of food stuffs annually that go off or are out of date, they are the ones who want cheap food fast when and where they want it. Not just veggies in season but also when they are not. The farmer is forced by the economies of scale to produce these at a price dictated not by the market place but by the companies that control the market place, Tesco's etc.
If you want to make a stand against the big companies start with the likes of Tesco's boycott them buy from your local corner shop. Our local little shop is cheaper for most of the main commodities than our local Co-op. So bigger is not always best.
There end of rant.
Phill
#9
Posted 07 February 2012 - 10:10
helend
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I'm with you CG! I've weaned myself off using supermarkets over the last couple of years, with the exception of Co-op. I stopped using clubcards and the like way before that when I twigged the value of the vouchers they give you are a fraction of the value of the information you give them on your spending habits.
We too have an excellent village shop - specialises in local, organic, small producers etc even sells my eggs sometimes, it's right up my street if you'll excuse the pun! It is more expensive but I only buy what I need as I need to so no waste
The message seems to be slowly getting out about wasting food, it's been on a couple of programs like super scrimpers, but many of the people watching will be those already so inclined.
In these "times of austerity" (if I hear that one more time!) it doesn't make any sense, but instead of people stopping wasting food, they just want to see everything getting cheaper. It's not buy one get one free often it's buy one chuck one out! It's hard to compete with these underhanded marketing tactics and get consumers out of the habit.
And the only people losing out as you quite rightly say CG are the producers who signed their deal with the devil and are at the mercy of the fickle supermarket.
Yet there are some farmers who are prepared to think outside the box - when they aren't making any money from milk they turn it into something they can sell for a profit like cheese or ice cream. Or they go and find an outlet for rose veal and decide to keep the male calves and turn them into something valuable rather than shoot them - even organic dairy farmers do this-is it ethical? It is these farmers who turn their back on supermarkets that should be
I have to say I still don't like large scale farming practices. Farmers who tore out hedgerows to make fields bigger so they could get their monster tractors in to do the job quicker so they could grow more because they make so little per unit of production they have to scale up. The same farmers who put trees and hedges back now but only because the government supports it.
Modern farming practices are not sustainable when they rely on too much government money and not on their own profits. What we here are doing - having to do - is prove we can be sustainable and profitable and completely unaided on a tiny scale by comparison. Why can't this practised more widely? It would get more people employed in agriculture, get them off the dole, and it would be an altogether more pleasant profession to be in. I suspect the answer is that we would still struggle to feed the nation if the eating habits and general attitudes to food don't change ie a lot of meat, and cheap meat at that.
This is what I can't get my head around, there's no easy answer.
We too have an excellent village shop - specialises in local, organic, small producers etc even sells my eggs sometimes, it's right up my street if you'll excuse the pun! It is more expensive but I only buy what I need as I need to so no waste
The message seems to be slowly getting out about wasting food, it's been on a couple of programs like super scrimpers, but many of the people watching will be those already so inclined.
In these "times of austerity" (if I hear that one more time!) it doesn't make any sense, but instead of people stopping wasting food, they just want to see everything getting cheaper. It's not buy one get one free often it's buy one chuck one out! It's hard to compete with these underhanded marketing tactics and get consumers out of the habit.
And the only people losing out as you quite rightly say CG are the producers who signed their deal with the devil and are at the mercy of the fickle supermarket.
Yet there are some farmers who are prepared to think outside the box - when they aren't making any money from milk they turn it into something they can sell for a profit like cheese or ice cream. Or they go and find an outlet for rose veal and decide to keep the male calves and turn them into something valuable rather than shoot them - even organic dairy farmers do this-is it ethical? It is these farmers who turn their back on supermarkets that should be
I have to say I still don't like large scale farming practices. Farmers who tore out hedgerows to make fields bigger so they could get their monster tractors in to do the job quicker so they could grow more because they make so little per unit of production they have to scale up. The same farmers who put trees and hedges back now but only because the government supports it.
Modern farming practices are not sustainable when they rely on too much government money and not on their own profits. What we here are doing - having to do - is prove we can be sustainable and profitable and completely unaided on a tiny scale by comparison. Why can't this practised more widely? It would get more people employed in agriculture, get them off the dole, and it would be an altogether more pleasant profession to be in. I suspect the answer is that we would still struggle to feed the nation if the eating habits and general attitudes to food don't change ie a lot of meat, and cheap meat at that.
This is what I can't get my head around, there's no easy answer.
#10
Posted 18 February 2012 - 23:24
Romany
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Farmer Giles
Modern farming practices are not sustainable when they rely on too much government money and not on their own profits.
It is not all about subsidies: the use of chemicals such as pesticides, herbicides etc is also unsustainable as these are made from fossil fuels which as we all know have become so much more expensive in the last year - and supplies are not infinite. Organic or ethical practices are therefore certainly the way forward even without certification.
Rather than growing for supermarkets I think farmers should insist on selling via central warehouses (taking the idea from Billingsgate fish market), this way they can sell to the highest bidder and not be cheated by the supermarkets paying as little as possible and rejecting most of the crop as 'not what the customer wants' (and putting the farmers in straitjackets as regards to what they are allowed do with the rejects
)It's something that bothers me, I've been banging on about this stuff to my family for years and I have only just made a breakthrough with my mum about eating local food, seasonally etc - she's got a farm shop just outside her village and she drives past it, then goes another 10 or 15 miles to get to a supermarket! She told me tonight how she bought local lamb and veg from the farm shop for a special meal for some of her family a couple of weeks ago and she was so chuffed, it was so tasty. I'm chuffed too - I can't believe it's finally sunk in.
Where's the smiley face for pulling your hair our?
I've had the same problems trying to convert one of my daughters to free range eggs. Despite her living in a rural area where eggs are sold at nearly every farm gate (at least one within half a mile) she still insists on purchasing eggs from battery (oops, sorry, 'caged') hens in the supermarket (minimum 11 miles away) for far more money
. I've given up trying to get inside her head on this one 
(agree, we need a hair-pulling smiley!!)Romany
#11
Posted 19 February 2012 - 09:52
Cornish Gems
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Sorry - we thought we would be able to help you out on this one but unfortunately we find we are unable to create an album.agree, we need a hair-pulling smiley!!
#12
Posted 19 February 2012 - 10:47
admin
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Littlest Hobo
More emoticons added.. 
#13
Posted 19 February 2012 - 12:53
KChally
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Farmer Giles
I think all farming subsidies should be banned. What is the difference between claiming subsidies and benefits. Thats what a lot of farmers are doing. If you took the subsidies away from them they would probably go out of business.
Example: we are farming only 6 acres and making a good profit, hopefully enough to build a house! The farmer next door has 50 acres with supposed beef cattle, he is claiming subsidies and keeps telling us "theres no money in farming". Thats because he has no incentive to go out and make a profit from his farm, because he is being given my money!!!
It is a cruel world, but lets try to get the economy moving again. If the farmers makes no profit, then he may well have to lose his farm to somebody who can make a profit.
My rant is also now over.
KChally
Example: we are farming only 6 acres and making a good profit, hopefully enough to build a house! The farmer next door has 50 acres with supposed beef cattle, he is claiming subsidies and keeps telling us "theres no money in farming". Thats because he has no incentive to go out and make a profit from his farm, because he is being given my money!!!
It is a cruel world, but lets try to get the economy moving again. If the farmers makes no profit, then he may well have to lose his farm to somebody who can make a profit.
My rant is also now over.
KChally
#14
Posted 11 March 2012 - 22:45
foodhero
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Chick
Hello
Organic v ethical I have been ethical for many years.
I registered for organic conversion partly because the welsh assembly said they would support me through the 2 year conversion.
As it happens I havent taken the support.
But if you are looking for a secure market going organic could be for you.
I now have an organic shop regularly ordering from me and can supply wholesalers when I have enough produce. It has made a significant difference in business terms and I havent changed the practices I intended to use.
Thats my experiance of it organics .
Of course wwoof and LUSH just seek ethical practices.
take care foodhero
Organic v ethical I have been ethical for many years.
I registered for organic conversion partly because the welsh assembly said they would support me through the 2 year conversion.
As it happens I havent taken the support.
But if you are looking for a secure market going organic could be for you.
I now have an organic shop regularly ordering from me and can supply wholesalers when I have enough produce. It has made a significant difference in business terms and I havent changed the practices I intended to use.
Thats my experiance of it organics .
Of course wwoof and LUSH just seek ethical practices.
take care foodhero
#15
Posted 13 June 2012 - 08:52
boiow
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i like the term 'beyond organic' it seems to me that organic standards are being compromised to attract more people.
#16
Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:06
Romany
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Farmer Giles
It would be nice if those of us on here who farm this way could take a stance together with other likeminded smallholders on other forums and create an ethical and organic certification, this time just for the smallholder and to make sure it is affordable. I remember about 15 years ago it wasn't so hard to afford membership of the Soil Association. Then for some reason it went rocketing out of the reach of most which I think is disgraceful.
Romany
Romany
