19 replies to this topic

[porkchop]

hello everyone

i hope you all well and its been a while since i have been on but i finally got my caravan on my land during the construction of my barn and the enforcement officer was very helpful and she always made it so i can stay on my land during times of my pigs farrowing or being ill.......is this sort of help normal as the parish council were furious with her decisions, i now have a septic tank installed, barn is half constructed and just putting calor gas tank in after xmas period, i may need to apply for planning permission for the gas tank but i will get it installed first as we need it for the caravan and barn as it runs our generators......Anyway enough of me rsbbiting on but i have come up with this great idea to earn a little extra income on my land and it is to have a standard single decker bus, like a dennis dart, and turn it in to a cafe and sell our home grown rare breed pork in bacon and sausage buns etc, i intend to call it the 'Country Kitchen Bus Cafe' and i will paint various countryside murals on the side of the bus, we have a decent amount of walkers, cyclists etc pass by at all times of the year and if we can make a few bob extra we intend to go for it.....But as usual i suspect the lpa and parish council will have a issue with this new venture of mine, i am led to believe i can have a shipping container on the land and use it as a cafe but could i have a bus, single or double decker, it is one of my child hood dreams to own a bus and what better way than to make it pay towards our life on the land, any information or help would be much appreciated.

cheers

porkchop

[surreydodger]

Hi Porkchop and nice to see you come back by

What a lovely idea and I'm with you on the owning a bus thing though it'd have to be a classical double-decker Routemaster for me

I'm not so sure the planning aspect would be so easy though. You could give it a try but I suspect two things and there's possibly more, will have the plannng officer tapping on your gate.

There would be no development so there's nothing there they could chase you for but by siting the bus on agricultural land and using it as a food outlet (A£ class I think?) then the land will have undergone a change of use, and that requires planning permission.

There's also the storage factor of such a vehicle. To store a non-agricultural vehicle or one that is not for your own (non-commercial) private use would also likely have planning officers fretting and popping at the seams! In essence, you'd need planning permission for vehicle storage or similar.

There are possibly a couple of way around it. One, if you have planning permission for a residence you could keep it within the curtilage of the dwelling as a private vehicle.

The other is that if you wanted to use it on your farm as a cafe on your farm is to use the 28 day rule. This might allow you to site it for up to 28 days a year on your land but you would still have to sort out the storage problem.

If it were me, I think I'd investigate the route of keeping it as a private vehicle which I could use for my own benefit but could utilise from time to time as a cafe.

[porkchop]

hello mate

so if not a cafe bus could i use a converted shipping container as this is a temporary building, i breed and rear british rare breed pigs on my land and sell the meat products from the pigs from my house a few miles away and i understood you could sell your products from your land, what do you think.

cheers

porkchop

p.s. i totally agree a viintage lowdekka fron On the Buses or a london toutemaster would be great but you need a second mortgage for one of them.

[Cornish Gems]

Porkchop,

Your idea of a bus sounds great, and we have had a thought on the subject if you have a double decker and you set up the lower deck as a farmshop and have your cafe on the upper-deck. In the morning you can take the bus on the road to a convenient lay-by and sell your produce and have your cafe, the afternoon you return to the land where you have your farmshop for visitors and the cafe is still open, as it would be a road going vehicle you would have to have it taxed and tested and the correct licence however from a cursory glance we cannot see the need for PP if used this way.

CG

[porkchop]

hello

why can i not have the bus on my land as a full time farm shop serving tea and coffee and porky delights and could i not have a long single decker split in half and is it still possible to go down the shipping container route as a farm shop cafe.

cheers

porkchop

[Cornish Gems]

Very interesting thought. After all, the thing against farm shops in parts of barns is their permanent situation. We know of 'mobile' caterers and also 'mobile' farm shops. Indeed we know of one layby which has a mobile catering establishment and then at other times has a lorry offering all kinds of produce. Is there room outside your land where you could perhaps situatate your 'bus'?

We have to confess that we are filled with admiration at your idea because of course you should be able to escape, in any kind at all for whatever reason at all, business rates!!!

Should you wish to start an online petition, please let us know because we will wiilingly sign up!

CG

[porkchop]

Very interesting thought. After all, the thing against farm shops in parts of barns is their permanent situation. We know of 'mobile' caterers and also 'mobile' farm shops. Indeed we know of one layby which has a mobile catering establishment and then at other times has a lorry offering all kinds of produce. Is there room outside your land where you could perhaps situatate your 'bus'?

We have to confess that we are filled with admiration at your idea because of course you should be able to escape, in any kind at all for whatever reason at all, business rates!!!

Should you wish to start an online petition, please let us know because we will wiilingly sign up!

CG

[porkchop]

hello

there is a lay by over the road from my land but i wanted the bus or shipping container on my land so i can be working on the land and then pop over if anyone comes through the gates, this venture would be a part of my pig business and after all i am selling produce which is bred and reared on my land along with selling fruit and veg which is grown on the land, the bus can be painted to blend in to the background and i could even grow some conifers to hide the bus from the roadside although in spring/summer the bus would not be visible due to trees and bushes, i dont want to waste money on insurance and mots for the bus so what do you think would happen if i had it on my land as a farm shop cafe along with selling poultry and pig feed or storing the feeds for my own use in the boot area, would it help if i took the wheels of the bus or would it then lose its mobile/temporary farm shop status.

May i point out at this moment that this as to be the best web site on the internet, it as helped so far to date to get me living on my land during barn construction and also ancillary to my pig business i.e. farrowing, sick animals etc.

cheers

porkchop

[che]

Hi Porkchop,

your planning officeris a typical Dr Jeykell whilst you follow his advice but beware if they ever suspect you want to live on your land you will have a Mr Hyde on your hands. This is where the obstacles arise and as SD said you are not allowed to store your bus on agricultural land without change of use.
Might be worth talking to your planner whilst they are still on your side they may buy into it If not as SD said find somewhere else to store it overnight. If its an oldie it may be tax exempt and there should be no business rates if is mobile as in catering wagons, You will need to register with and comply with EH regulations.

PS hope your not planning on travelling far with the price of deisel

[porkchop]

Hi Porkchop,

your planning officeris a typical Dr Jeykell whilst you follow his advice but beware if they ever suspect you want to live on your land you will have a Mr Hyde on your hands. This is where the obstacles arise and as SD said you are not allowed to store your bus on agricultural land without change of use.
Might be worth talking to your planner whilst they are still on your side they may buy into it If not as SD said find somewhere else to store it overnight. If its an oldie it may be tax exempt and there should be no business rates if is mobile as in catering wagons, You will need to register with and comply with EH regulations.

PS hope your not planning on travelling far with the price of deisel

hello

if not a bus as a cafe were do i stand with converting a shipping container in to a farm shop and cafe to sell my bacon and sausage sandwiches, pork joints etc, fruit and veg.

cheers

porkchop

[Groundhog]

hello

if not a bus as a cafe were do i stand with converting a shipping container in to a farm shop and cafe to sell my bacon and sausage sandwiches, pork joints etc, fruit and veg.

cheers

porkchop

Only an idea but if you used an old cattle lorry youu can point out it is agricultural chattle.You could pick up a cheap one an old Bedford TK with awooden body could look good

[surreydodger]

The issue you will always end up with if you use a shipping container, bus, lorry body or even a redundant UFO, is the use upon the land.

Possibly the easiest way to comprehend that, is imagine if you had a piece of land which had planning permission for industrial use. That piece of land can only be used for industrial use and nothing else. If you want to use that piece of land for something else, say retail, you will need to get the 'use' changed from industrial to retail (and this doesn't even begin to explain the intricacies of different types of retail or industrial uses).

So, to set up a cafe of any sorts will require planning permission for a change of use. Even if your cafe was to only sell food as produced upon your land, it will require a degree of processing to be able to put it on a customers plate,,,, excepting that you will be putting a whole live pig and freshly dug up and still muddy potatoes on someones plate!! It is the processing which the planning bods will use as proof that you are runnning a cafe as opposed to a farm shop.

A farm shop is a slight annomally within the planning world in that it allows a retail operation upon land without a change of use permission. There are however, regs which cover what you may and may not sell.

Of course, you can try your luck and just open up your bus cafe selling your produce and much as I'd wish you every success, I'm sad to say that the planners will likely soon be upon you

[che]

It would appear you could operate for 28 days per year but after that you could be required to get PP.

Interesting Appeal Case.

http://dpea.scotland...249/J121773.pdf

[porkchop]

The issue you will always end up with if you use a shipping container, bus, lorry body or even a redundant UFO, is the use upon the land.

Possibly the easiest way to comprehend that, is imagine if you had a piece of land which had planning permission for industrial use. That piece of land can only be used for industrial use and nothing else. If you want to use that piece of land for something else, say retail, you will need to get the 'use' changed from industrial to retail (and this doesn't even begin to explain the intricacies of different types of retail or industrial uses).

So, to set up a cafe of any sorts will require planning permission for a change of use. Even if your cafe was to only sell food as produced upon your land, it will require a degree of processing to be able to put it on a customers plate,,,, excepting that you will be putting a whole live pig and freshly dug up and still muddy potatoes on someones plate!! It is the processing which the planning bods will use as proof that you are runnning a cafe as opposed to a farm shop.

A farm shop is a slight annomally within the planning world in that it allows a retail operation upon land without a change of use permission. There are however, regs which cover what you may and may not sell.

Of course, you can try your luck and just open up your bus cafe selling your produce and much as I'd wish you every success, I'm sad to say that the planners will likely soon be upon you

hello sd

so could i have a bus, shipping container etc as a farm shop if i only sold the fruit and veg i grow on my land and at a later date go for pp for the cafe bit

cheers

porkchop

[The Blacksmith]

I know lorrys are and think your bus could be mot exempt and free tax if it is over 6 tons and pre 1960. my truck is.

[Hobbit]

Whilst there are a surprising number of MOT exempt vehicles around, unfortunately buses aren't one of them. I understand that the MOT exemption for pre-1960 lorries applies to anything with a gross weight exceeding today's PLG limit of 3.5 tonnes, hence the 'new age traveller's' love of Commer Q4s, Thames Traders etc.

In case it's useful to anyone the following vehicles are all MOT exempt:

All tractors
Agriculturally registered vehicles travelling no more than 6 miles per week between fields
Any articulated vehicle that is not a bus or lorry
Electric vehicles
Specialist vehicles i.e. Cherry pickers, recovery trucks, tankers (providing use is only for that purpose)
Track laying vehicles
Invalid carriages weighing no more than 306kg unladen
Works trucks
Police vehicles
Local authority taxis
Any pre-1960 goods vehicle with a gross design weight of over 3500kg, unless used commercially
Any pre-1918 goods vehicle

Apparently VOSA are going to allow all pre-1939 vehicles (including cars) to be MOT exempt very soon.

Tax exemption applies to all vehicles manufactured prior to 1st Jan 1973. The manufacture date is usually an earlier date than that of first registration, so you may still qualify even with a vehicle registered in 1973.

Sorry to be a nerd but this is the definitive list according to VOSA. Probably useful to someone.

[surreydodger]

hello sd

so could i have a bus, shipping container etc as a farm shop if i only sold the fruit and veg i grow on my land and at a later date go for pp for the cafe bit

cheers

porkchop

I would think that is a good approach Porkchop. Have a search about the forum as I'm sure there's been some posts made in the past to the more precise regs regarding setting up a farm shop.

Hobbit,,, you're a nerd (but a useful one never the less )

[che]

hello

if not a bus as a cafe were do i stand with converting a shipping container in to a farm shop and cafe to sell my bacon and sausage sandwiches, pork joints etc, fruit and veg.

cheers

porkchop

[che]

hello

if not a bus as a cafe were do i stand with converting a shipping container in to a farm shop and cafe to sell my bacon and sausage sandwiches, pork joints etc, fruit and veg.

cheers

porkchop

The problem with the Cafe is justifying that it is incedental to your farming activities rather than the type of structure you use.

The beauty of a legal road going vehicle or trailer is they can easily be removed if you fall foul of the planners.

Remove and reinstate the land is the stick planners use to beat us with.

Moving and storing statics and containers can be costly where as a tastefully convertedbus/trailer can easily be removed and sold on if nessacery.

I would try the bus as a farm shop first then add cafe later, you could allways site the unit in a layby avoiding PP in most areas.

[Romany]

Tax exemption applies to all vehicles manufactured prior to 1st Jan 1973. The manufacture date is usually an earlier date than that of first registration, so you may still qualify even with a vehicle registered in 1973.

Hobbit, I thought tax exemption was applicable to all vehicles over 25 years old?!

Porkchop, I think it's an excellent idea and wish you the best of luck with it!

I don't get how we can have mobile structures (generally anything with wheels or skids [including containers - which are NOT easily moved and have no wheels!!]) but can't have a bus (which DOES have wheels and IS easily moved!!)
confused much

Romany