14 replies to this topic

[alanandastrid]

We are looking at a livestock holding spread over 12 acres.

6 acres of pasture for 6 cattle with calves.

4 acres of woodland for 6 breeding sows.

2 acres for arable and storage.

Financially I suspect I can make a living of ~£18k with this model, but can I rack up 2000 hours with this lot.

Im hesitating buying a copy of Jon Nix and his Agi figures as I cant believe the figures are not readily available on a UK webiste. Perhaps some kind person could point me to wards said web site......or if you have the book please throw some figures at me to satisfy my need.

or even enough experience to inform me.

regards

Alan and Astrid

[clarissa]

We are looking at a livestock holding spread over 12 acres.

6 acres of pasture for 6 cattle with calves.

4 acres of woodland for 6 breeding sows.

2 acres for arable and storage.

Financially I suspect I can make a living of ~£18k with this model, but can I rack up 2000 hours with this lot.

Im hesitating buying a copy of Jon Nix and his Agi figures as I cant believe the figures are not readily available on a UK webiste. Perhaps some kind person could point me to wards said web site......or if you have the book please throw some figures at me to satisfy my need.

or even enough experience to inform me.

regards

Alan and Astrid

[clarissa]

We are looking at a livestock holding spread over 12 acres.

6 acres of pasture for 6 cattle with calves.

4 acres of woodland for 6 breeding sows.

2 acres for arable and storage.

Financially I suspect I can make a living of ~£18k with this model, but can I rack up 2000 hours with this lot.

Im hesitating buying a copy of Jon Nix and his Agi figures as I cant believe the figures are not readily available on a UK webiste. Perhaps some kind person could point me to wards said web site......or if you have the book please throw some figures at me to satisfy my need.

or even enough experience to inform me.

regards

Alan and Astrid

Hi Alan & Astrid,
I am no expert tho I am a little further into the battle to glory plus happen to have the latest copy of Nix's.
My applicaton was refused as the LPA used SMDs to calculate we would only be requied part time at the best. We challenged this and the senior planning consultant responsible for the SMDs profit margin figures etc etc offered a free consulation. To cut a long story short the consultant visited and agreed that SMD s did not fit a smaller non commercial concern such as ours and was prepared to write a report (at a cost) and provide representation at our pending appeal.
The consultant did advise enlisting support from a local planning adviser who could speak to the LPA in the language they could relate to relay his message.
Following this advice and with support from F2F the best advice was to resubmit another application which would meet the critera (on paper anyway) as telling them what they want to hear is much easier than arguing over LPA criteria.
Let me know what figures you require.

[clarissa]

Hi Alan & Astrid,
I am no expert tho I am a little further into the battle to glory plus happen to have the latest copy of Nix's.
My applicaton was refused as the LPA used SMDs to calculate we would only be requied part time at the best. We challenged this and the senior planning consultant responsible for the SMDs profit margin figures etc etc offered a free consulation. To cut a long story short the consultant visited and agreed that SMD s did not fit a smaller non commercial concern such as ours and was prepared to write a report (at a cost) and provide representation at our pending appeal.
The consultant did advise enlisting support from a local planning adviser who could speak to the LPA in the language they could relate to relay his message.
Following this advice and with support from F2F the best advice was to resubmit another application which would meet the critera (on paper anyway) as telling them what they want to hear is much easier than arguing over LPA criteria.
Let me know what figures you require.

I found this link for the 2008 Nix's handbook but nothing for the later versions
http://www.mendip.go...Requirement.pdf

[surreydodger]

Hi A&A

As Clarissa says and has uncovered, the publications attributable to working times really do not work on smaller farms. Mot of the members here know that but Clarissa has actually managed to tackle the subject to the point of gaining first hand acknowledgement that such calculations should not be used on our type of projects.

Looking at your plan I can not see you would be able to justify a dwelling on the land. Yes, it would be profitable enough going by your figures but with only twelve breeding stock on site, I do not feel the planners would warrant that enough to justify living on the land.

You could of course introduce intensive farming facilities and have ample cows on your 12 acres. but I am rather hoping that is not your reason for setting up such a venture. I'm certain it's not so I would look to find ways of increasing flock/herd sizes so you can justify the need to be on site 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year. This is where small animals are advantageous such as pigs, sheep and poultry but even then, you must ensure you have breeding programs to show the requirement of being on site.

Of course, once you have gained the permissions you require for a dwelling, you may alter what types of agriculture you carry out. It's a bit like passing your driving test by driving ina certain style and then once passed, driving like everyone else !!

[che]

Hi Alan & Astrid

In this game it is not so much what size your plot is but what you do with it. Obviously the more land you have the more options are open to you and if you have more than 5 hectares or 12.5 acres you can claim PD rights. There are examples of succesful applications on small sites in the planning cases section.
Others have pointed out that on the numbers you have presented you would have difficulty covering the functional need. This means you need to prove a reason to be on site 24/7 and normally relates to being on hand to help birthing livestock. The best place to start is searching out other succesful applications particularly from your own area.
Dont forget though not to trust your local planners however helpful they may appear at first. They are indoctrinated to defend the countryside with the fervor of a religious zealot.

[Groundhog]

Hi A&A

As Clarissa says and has uncovered, the publications attributable to working times really do not work on smaller farms. Mot of the members here know that but Clarissa has actually managed to tackle the subject to the point of gaining first hand acknowledgement that such calculations should not be used on our type of projects.

Looking at your plan I can not see you would be able to justify a dwelling on the land. Yes, it would be profitable enough going by your figures but with only twelve breeding stock on site, I do not feel the planners would warrant that enough to justify living on the land.

You could of course introduce intensive farming facilities and have ample cows on your 12 acres. but I am rather hoping that is not your reason for setting up such a venture. I'm certain it's not so I would look to find ways of increasing flock/herd sizes so you can justify the need to be on site 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year. This is where small animals are advantageous such as pigs, sheep and poultry but even then, you must ensure you have breeding programs to show the requirement of being on site.

Of course, once you have gained the permissions you require for a dwelling, you may alter what types of agriculture you carry out. It's a bit like passing your driving test by driving ina certain style and then once passed, driving like everyone else !!

Dont want to be a kill joy but you are not going to make a net profit of 18k on that !
s

[Groundhog]

.

[Groundhog]

We are looking at a livestock holding spread over 12 acres.

6 acres of pasture for 6 cattle with calves.

4 acres of woodland for 6 breeding sows.

2 acres for arable and storage.

Financially I suspect I can make a living of ~£18k with this model, but can I rack up 2000 hours with this lot.

Im hesitating buying a copy of Jon Nix and his Agi figures as I cant believe the figures are not readily available on a UK webiste. Perhaps some kind person could point me to wards said web site......or if you have the book please throw some figures at me to satisfy my need.

or even enough experience to inform me.

regards

Alan and Astrid

A Nix book is an essential book to use as a reference for ones own use especially if agriculture is new to you as it will highlight costs and things you may not have thought of which you can then go on and research.It can be used to justify or disprove what you propsose to do so you can plan your enterprise and then rip it to pieces yourself until you think you have covered all options and are confident to present either verbaly or otherwise to anyone.Dont want to be a kill joy but you are not going to make an 18k net profit on the stock above,have you done a projected cash flow and profit and loss projection on the animals mentioned ie returns,breed,weight and age of point of sale,cost of fodder and feed etc

[KChally]

Ditto. I agree 100% with Groundhog. How do you intend to make profit from this number of animals? You will make no money from selling weaners, you will have to add value to the meat and that will incur butchers costs etc. You will then have to sell it somehow.

I know it all sounds easy and idyllic this farming lark, but believe me its not!! its extremely hard work and sometimes soul destroying. Your only chance is to get to grips with YOUR OWN business plan, there's no way round it Im afraid. Research, research and more research should be your starting point. I'm also sorry to sound so negative but you have to be realistic.

On a positive note, we have been farming pigs on only 6 acres and are hopefully just about to put in an application for a permanent agricultural workers dwelling. Tomorrow morning we are having a pre-application meeting with the planners. Our planning and agricultural consultants will also be attending to fight our corner so to speak, to find out if we will need to extend our temporary permission for 12 months or just put the full application in. So it can be done! Please wish us luck.

KChally

[Groundhog]

Ditto. I agree 100% with Groundhog. How do you intend to make profit from this number of animals? You will make no money from selling weaners, you will have to add value to the meat and that will incur butchers costs etc. You will then have to sell it somehow.

I know it all sounds easy and idyllic this farming lark, but believe me its not!! its extremely hard work and sometimes soul destroying. Your only chance is to get to grips with YOUR OWN business plan, there's no way round it Im afraid. Research, research and more research should be your starting point. I'm also sorry to sound so negative but you have to be realistic.

On a positive note, we have been farming pigs on only 6 acres and are hopefully just about to put in an application for a permanent agricultural workers dwelling. Tomorrow morning we are having a pre-application meeting with the planners. Our planning and agricultural consultants will also be attending to fight our corner so to speak, to find out if we will need to extend our temporary permission for 12 months or just put the full application in. So it can be done! Please wish us luck.

KChally

Good Luck ! not that you are going to need it you obviously have found the way to maximise profit through good product niche marketing etc.You have ticked all the boxes and should be confident in your application.You will get it.
With ref to the post "It is possible to turn a healthy profit on a small number of animals" the key to it is establishing what you can do,I have a small acerage small number of animals but can show a respectable return so it can be done

[che]

Ditto. I agree 100% with Groundhog. How do you intend to make profit from this number of animals? You will make no money from selling weaners, you will have to add value to the meat and that will incur butchers costs etc. You will then have to sell it somehow.

I know it all sounds easy and idyllic this farming lark, but believe me its not!! its extremely hard work and sometimes soul destroying. Your only chance is to get to grips with YOUR OWN business plan, there's no way round it Im afraid. Research, research and more research should be your starting point. I'm also sorry to sound so negative but you have to be realistic.

On a positive note, we have been farming pigs on only 6 acres and are hopefully just about to put in an application for a permanent agricultural workers dwelling. Tomorrow morning we are having a pre-application meeting with the planners. Our planning and agricultural consultants will also be attending to fight our corner so to speak, to find out if we will need to extend our temporary permission for 12 months or just put the full application in. So it can be done! Please wish us luck.

KChally

Good Luck but has already been said you should not need it. It is obvious to all on this site that you are commited to building an appropriate sustainable business. Hopefully this will not go unoticed by your locl planners but if they do I would bet that it would be won on appeal.

[surreydodger]

Good luck KC and don't let anything 'they' say get your gander up.

'Play it cool Rodney'

[KChally]

Well we had the "meeting" all 5 of us, consultants, me, hubby and the planner. His first reaction to what was said was no. So then our consultants got to work, pointing this and that out to him and asking him "would you REALLY be prepared to go to appeal on that!!! Plenty was said and in the end he was turned around and suggested we put in a full application. So we are now working on the drawings with our architect, to get them ready for submission by 11 Dec.

Some of the things that came out of the meeting were:
He told us that the council would only accept a dwelling with a maximum of upto 140sq metres but our consultant pointed out to him that it was usual to have a maximum of 140 to 200 sq mtrs and where did he get his figures from as there was nothing in planning guidelines to confirm his figure. He couldnt really answer the question. It seemed like he had just made it up as he went along.

The planner also said that from 1st April 2012 the planning application fee would be changing from £335 to any amount they felt like charging and the fee they would charge could be £1000 if they liked. They would see what other local authorities would be charging. He said he was sure that would put plenty of people off from making any applications and laughed when he said it. This had come from the government apparently.

The planner tried to make us extend our temporary permission for another 2 years and maybe put in our full application after 12 months. Our consultants pointed out to him that all this extra cost would be better spent invested in our business and they generally ripped him to pieces.

I think I should have put this entry in my diary. If any of you can transfer it for me I would be very grateful. Thanks

KChally

[surreydodger]

Hi KC,

The above proves the worth of sometimes having a good team around you even if it does cost If one has the time to study and learn all the regulations to the enth degree, they may feel confident enough to represent themselves but I liken it to learning a foriegn language.

You may well learn to speak French or whatever but being able to converse in French fluently when in France is another matter.

Still, good to hear the local planning officer was of the usual calibre,, one notch above reject
BTW, just copy and paste your above post and put it into a new post on your Diary. I think it is handy to have it here as well as there for future comments.