20 replies to this topic

[alanandastrid]

We recently prepared an outline business plan for a smallholding focusing on beef production and met with a Agri Consultant to discuss the suitability. She recommended that we would need to maintain 44 acres in order to raise a herd of approx 40 cattle in order to work the 2,000 hours asked of the Local Authority to confirm viability.

After this meeting we felt the need to diversify and consider alternatives.

We have been considering 20 acres of suitable land and intend to work a plan based on the land rather than starting with a business plan.

However there are 2 initial stumbling blocks in the preperation:

1. Hours per annum
In order to prepare a strong business plan for the LA we require to work >2,000 hours per year.
Are the working hours flexible?
Can you point me towards a reference or the equation to achieve this figure or is it simply 40hr/week x 52 weeks of the year.
If so can we argue for a 36hr week only working 48 weeks = 1,728 hr / year, as this would allow us to manage a smaller area.


2. Hours per job
We intended to develop a single stock farm based to beef production. Therefore the consultant recommended 48 acres to raise ~40 head in order to meet the smallholders working requirement of ~2,000 hrs/year. However, she gave the example, if we were to bucket feed or hand rear calfs our input would increase. Where is this info available?

My intention is to confirm if we can make this property succeed if we grow crops, and maintain pigs as well as cattle to build up to the required hours. Ive taken to reading smallholders literature and searched a few on line resources but have not come across the info required.

Please get back if you know where this info is available.

[Cornish Gems]

You do not say why you are preparing a business plan for the LA. Is it your intention to apply straight away for temp pp? We only ask, because, if so, we strongly suspect that only 40 head of cattle will not fulfil the functional need, so you are right to consider diverification.

[Groundhog]

We recently prepared an outline business plan for a smallholding focusing on beef production and met with a Agri Consultant to discuss the suitability. She recommended that we would need to maintain 44 acres in order to raise a herd of approx 40 cattle in order to work the 2,000 hours asked of the Local Authority to confirm viability.

After this meeting we felt the need to diversify and consider alternatives.

We have been considering 20 acres of suitable land and intend to work a plan based on the land rather than starting with a business plan.

However there are 2 initial stumbling blocks in the preperation:

1. Hours per annum
In order to prepare a strong business plan for the LA we require to work >2,000 hours per year.
Are the working hours flexible?
Can you point me towards a reference or the equation to achieve this figure or is it simply 40hr/week x 52 weeks of the year.
If so can we argue for a 36hr week only working 48 weeks = 1,728 hr / year, as this would allow us to manage a smaller area.


2. Hours per job
We intended to develop a single stock farm based to beef production. Therefore the consultant recommended 48 acres to raise ~40 head in order to meet the smallholders working requirement of ~2,000 hrs/year. However, she gave the example, if we were to bucket feed or hand rear calfs our input would increase. Where is this info available?

My intention is to confirm if we can make this property succeed if we grow crops, and maintain pigs as well as cattle to build up to the required hours. Ive taken to reading smallholders literature and searched a few on line resources but have not come across the info required.

Please get back if you know where this info is available.

Consultants and LPA,s use management figures such as John Nix to give them standard man days etc,now these figures are only useful if applied to your advantage,also they are a guide and not the only level.You firstly need to establish the Functional need.Cattle production and crops dont tick lots of boxes unless it is specialised and specific.The calf example is a good way to highlight all the extra hours required,but dont forget and specialist enterprise proposed needs to be backed up with experience to be able to do it and turn a profit.Now I can spend 1hr a day working on my sheep enterprise but need to show why I HAVE TO spend 6hrs.Management figures are guidelines and 40 head on 40 acres and 2000hrs really doesnt relate to anything and is not possible without factoring in extra land needed forage conservation housing etc etc etc.
Do you know how much 40 cattle will cost you and how much they eat ?

[alanandastrid]

You do not say why you are preparing a business plan for the LA. Is it your intention to apply straight away for temp pp? We only ask, because, if so, we strongly suspect that only 40 head of cattle will not fulfil the functional need, so you are right to consider diverification.

We are preparing the Business Plan for 2 reasons :

For ourselves, to confirm that we will make a living.

For the LA to show there is a functional need to live on the land and that the smallholding is suitably profitable, with a view to gaining PP for an agricultural dwelling on the land.


Im wondering if we deviating into the world of smallholdings in order to build on the land when we could be focusing on farming and would not needd to jump through so many hoops?

[Cornish Gems]

Thank you for clearing up that small point. Obviously, then, you are not intending to follow the F2F route and guidelines.

Just a word about Business Plans - be very careful - for instance, do not base your plan on, say, cattle, then a year later decide that you would do better with alpacas because the LA will take a very dim view of this.

[alanandastrid]

Consultants and LPA,s use management figures such as John Nix to give them standard man days etc,now these figures are only useful if applied to your advantage,also they are a guide and not the only level.You firstly need to establish the Functional need.Cattle production and crops dont tick lots of boxes unless it is specialised and specific.The calf example is a good way to highlight all the extra hours required,but dont forget and specialist enterprise proposed needs to be backed up with experience to be able to do it and turn a profit.Now I can spend 1hr a day working on my sheep enterprise but need to show why I HAVE TO spend 6hrs.Management figures are guidelines and 40 head on 40 acres and 2000hrs really doesnt relate to anything and is not possible without factoring in extra land needed forage conservation housing etc etc etc.
Do you know how much 40 cattle will cost you and how much they eat ?

Thanks for the John Nix info.

We have history in the restaurant business and expect to find direct buyers for the beef. We intended a much smaller herd, as our livestock experience is limited and we are considering this venture on not much more than an overwhelming desire to live a more sustainable lifestyle in a rural environment with livestock (however this is not just a whim....its a desire that we expect to realise one way or another).

The agri consultant pumped up the herd size to 40 to pad out the man hours required and so the land required grew. We would prefer to keep the herd size smaller and use additional land to support them. It is the figures for winter feed required per head and acreage for production of said winter feed that Im looking for right specifically.

As for the capital cost of the herd - I was expecting to bring the herd upto the required size over a 3 year period and keep my eye on the BACA livestock prices for suitable stock (ideally young cows due to calf for for unto £900 a piece).

How much they eat - I could do with some advise on stock per acre and consumption per head when the grass is no longer enough.

Will be pleased to get direct answer or a pinter in the right direction.

thanks.

[alanandastrid]

Obviously, then, you are not intending to follow the F2F route and guidelines.

I must admit im about half way through but have not seen our plan deviate dramatically from the advise given in the book (greenfield site - barn - 3 years on site temporary accommodation - develop a business plan for the LA in order to gain agricultural workers dwelling).

[surreydodger]

Hi Alan and Astrid,

I am not sure if CG's and Groundhogs advice above has come across clearly enough but as your current project stands, you are unlikely to get permission to live on your farm. Under the current practice that a planning officer or inspector would use, I can't see how they would reconcile the need for somebody to be living on site to look after a herd of only forty breeding cows.

That doesn't mean that I agree with them. Far from it as from my perspective, animal welfare is foremost.

However, the planning system does not look at such applicatons from the animals well being and care point of view, or yours either so it is time for reality.

Planners would need to be shown you calving almost every other day to get them past the idealogy that you need to be living on your land full time. Much less than that and they will decree that you can judge when a cow is likely to be calving and hence, you only need to be on site, overnight, at those times. There will be some evidence you can show that the care of your cows takes up your time and others with more cattle based experience may be able to enlighten us all to the hours one could attribute to a herd of forty head. My feeling is that getting to forty hours a week/2000 hours a year would be difficult.

Is the agricultural consultant you are employing currently, experienced wiith planning matters. I'm sorry, but from what you have said above it does not sound as though they are. Hopefully I am wrong on that but if you want to create a working farm from which to earn and live a way of life on, then you have to come at it from a planning point of view firstly and the use an ag. cosultant to verify the practices required to meet the planning regs.

Just one point re hours required. This is subjective and debateable with your LPA. There is no stipulated amount of hours that fulfills the criteria of full time. However, 35 hours a week along with three weeks holiday a year should be acceptable.

Sorry for the negativity but if you asked me what your chances were of living on the land based on your info above, then I'd say it was about 1%. I'd rather you went into something like this with a greater chance of success so as you do not end up wasting your time and money.

[che]

Dont forget to cover functional need you also have to prove a need to be there 24/7 as well. With livestock this normally involves a breeding proramme which means you could be needed any time of the day or night. Not sure that hand rearing calves would cover this. Buying in calf would be better but calving can be problematical particularly for beginners

[alanandastrid]

SurreyDodger

Thanks for the clarification and the wake up call. . It's now clear that we have a need to diversify in order to meet the LPA requirements.

There are 3 issues I intend to address:
Now that we have a couple of good references for working hours and a target of just below 2000 hrs/pa to aim for we will build up our working week.

We will proceed with the business plan highlighting a reasonable profit.

We will diversify into alternative stock, in addition to a smaller herd of cattle, allowing us to meet the functional need to be there for a more erratic breeding schedule (I hope we are able to meet this requirement with rare breed pigs rather than the less edible options).

The final point is probably to finish reading F2F before busting in and asking for advise on our plan.....thanks for your advise to date.

[alanandastrid]

Dont forget to cover functional need you also have to prove a need to be there 24/7 as well. With livestock this normally involves a breeding proramme which means you could be needed any time of the day or night. Not sure that hand rearing calves would cover this. Buying in calf would be better but calving can be problematical particularly for beginners

Che

I can see that diversification into an additional, complimentary stock with an irregular breeding program is necessary to meet the functional requirement.

From your experience would you consider outdoor reared pigs would meet this requirement? Especially if they are free roaming in woodland with a boar I suspect it may be difficult to estimate birthing dates.

Would the size of the pig herd need to be substantial enough to take up a certain proportion of your time or can the need be met by a herd of a limited size.

[surreydodger]

Hi A&A,

Just pleased you are keen to give it a go and would not like to see anyones enthusiasm knocked for the sake of getting a workable plan going forward. There are many ways to do it, none are gauranteed and it's not easy at any stage. One thing I would suggest is contemplate something you can provide that the big farmers can't. I could see the advantages of something like a Dexter (supposed to be a very tender beef??) or other specialised breed when it comes to beef but overall, I think as a small farm, one competes best in in niches and highest quality produce.

Good luck and look forward to hearing your plans

[alanandastrid]

One thing I would suggest is contemplate something you can provide that the big farmers can't. I could see the advantages of something like a Dexter (supposed to be a very tender beef??) or other specialised breed when it comes to beef but overall, I think as a small farm, one competes best in in niches and highest quality produce.

SurreyDodger

thanks for the thumbs up!!!

Im aware of the negative side of industrial farming and its very important that we do see ourselves as smallholders offering a specialty product.

At the moment we are considering Angus...perhaps even the Aberdonian type, for the quality of the meet (I looked into Kobe beef for an evening recently.....but its not going to happen outside of Japan).

Will keep you posted

[davidc]

My neighbour got planning permission for an agricultural worker's property on approx 50 - 60 acres greenfield, save for a recently built barn for winter housing for the cattle, for one of his sons "employed in the suckler cow/beef rearing business" on their holding next to me. Their main farm is approx 5 miles away as the crow flies, where they have a very diversified business employing the father and the 2 sons. Father and son no 1 live on the farm in separate dwellings. Son no 2 currently lives about 1 1/2 miles away from this holding. They have approx 50 breeding long horn cows - calf unattended and outside. The application was approved on this basis of this enterprise only and with an extremely difficult council. Access to the yet to be built house is either a circuitous route across their land to the main road, or 600 yards or so down a public footpath. House will be well outside the village.

It is possible; they used an ex planner as a consultant, now working for a land agent.

Good luck

David

[Cornish Gems]

David - that sounds very interesting. Do you feel you could find the details of the application so that it can be included in the Planning Cases forum? If, however, you do not wish to do so, then we shall understand.

[alanandastrid]

My neighbour got planning permission for an agricultural worker's property on approx 50 - 60 acres greenfield,

Dave

thanks for a positive story.

I would be very interested in looking over their paperwork as it is quite similar to our plans.

Is that available on line?

What was the local authority.

Look forward to hearing from you.


Alan & Astrid

[Groundhog]

My neighbour got planning permission for an agricultural worker's property on approx 50 - 60 acres greenfield, save for a recently built barn for winter housing for the cattle, for one of his sons "employed in the suckler cow/beef rearing business" on their holding next to me. Their main farm is approx 5 miles away as the crow flies, where they have a very diversified business employing the father and the 2 sons. Father and son no 1 live on the farm in separate dwellings. Son no 2 currently lives about 1 1/2 miles away from this holding. They have approx 50 breeding long horn cows - calf unattended and outside. The application was approved on this basis of this enterprise only and with an extremely difficult council. Access to the yet to be built house is either a circuitous route across their land to the main road, or 600 yards or so down a public footpath. House will be well outside the village.

It is possible; they used an ex planner as a consultant, now working for a land agent.

Good luck

David

The difference with that example is that it is an add on to an existing established large Agric enterprise,possible historic farming history in the area,which although not a specific critiria I think is taken into consideration beacause it keeps the farming tradition which may have been there for generations alive

[davidc]

Hi Guys


this should get it - 1/2009/0141 appears to be Durham - I was certain it was Derwentside - perhaps started off with them when they were in existance. they were total bastards and idiots - you may recall their chief planning officer was shot dead 20 years ago.......

>>>.The difference with that example is that it is an add on to an existing established large Agric enterprise,possible historic farming history in the area,which although not a specific critiria I think is taken into consideration beacause it keeps the farming tradition which may have been there for generations alive

no that was not what the father told me; he was quite peeved it was being classed as a separate stand alone business - had to to justify the requirement of the house and comply with all the statutory planning requirements for such a property on the longhorns only .

Besides the two holdings are in different counties, so different councils.

It did not take years either to get it - bit of hassel and jumping through hoops, help from someone in the know on how to apply / what to say and the consultant from the land agent (don't think that was mega expensive either.) also having an annual barn dance to raise funds for the local school cleverly keeps the natives on side.....

cheers

David

[Groundhog]

Hi Guys


this should get it - 1/2009/0141 appears to be Durham - I was certain it was Derwentside - perhaps started off with them when they were in existance. they were total bastards and idiots - you may recall their chief planning officer was shot dead 20 years ago.......

>>>.The difference with that example is that it is an add on to an existing established large Agric enterprise,possible historic farming history in the area,which although not a specific critiria I think is taken into consideration beacause it keeps the farming tradition which may have been there for generations alive

no that was not what the father told me; he was quite peeved it was being classed as a separate stand alone business - had to to justify the requirement of the house and comply with all the statutory planning requirements for such a property on the longhorns only .

Besides the two holdings are in different counties, so different councils.

It did not take years either to get it - bit of hassel and jumping through hoops, help from someone in the know on how to apply / what to say and the consultant from the land agent (don't think that was mega expensive either.) also having an annual barn dance to raise funds for the local school cleverly keeps the natives on side.....

cheers

David

Much can be learnt from reading such applications if that is the case because it shows the huge difference between different geographical locations,also by reading successfull applications key points should be included in your own plan.The more prepared you are to meet the challenge better the chance of success I reckon

[alanandastrid]

try this for the link to DavidC

http://www.derwentsi...ref=1/2009/0141