24 replies to this topic

[clarissa]

Hi we have followed the advice in the book as other members. We had a business plan created by new land owner 'agricultural experts'. We have in excess of 400 various poultry, run 6 paraffin incubators each capable of holding upto 200 eggs plus run gas brooder as we have no mains electricity. We had a consultant sent out from the council who has basically recommended refusal because we do not have mains and suggested that we could run the business from villages upto 8 mile away. He did not mention in his report the recorded incidents of theft or mortliy rates - we are completely floored as we have tried to everything correct. I can't see how we can leave the place unattended. There are things on this 'consultants' report that are incorrect. Please could someone offer some comfort - we have no way of affording anything in this area and we are not able to leave the smalholding as if we do both preditors and the 2 legged foxes will take everything. I am happy for anyone to have a look at my PPS7 statement, business plan and the refusal recommendation. Really desparate we will be homeless and the animals will not survive as prior to moving on site. This person has basically turned us down as we do not have mains electric or water. Any advice most welcome. Many thanks for reading this.

[Burl]

Hi we have followed the advice in the book as other members. We had a business plan created by new land owner 'agricultural experts'. We have in excess of 400 various poultry, run 6 paraffin incubators each capable of holding upto 200 eggs plus run gas brooder as we have no mains electricity. We had a consultant sent out from the council who has basically recommended refusal because we do not have mains and suggested that we could run the business from villages upto 8 mile away. He did not mention in his report the recorded incidents of theft or mortliy rates - we are completely floored as we have tried to everything correct. I can't see how we can leave the place unattended. There are things on this 'consultants' report that are incorrect. Please could someone offer some comfort - we have no way of affording anything in this area and we are not able to leave the smalholding as if we do both preditors and the 2 legged foxes will take everything. I am happy for anyone to have a look at my PPS7 statement, business plan and the refusal recommendation. Really desparate we will be homeless and the animals will not survive as prior to moving on site. This person has basically turned us down as we do not have mains electric or water. Any advice most welcome. Many thanks for reading this.

[Burl]

i bol----- ksed that up , appologies
When we started we had nothing on site of our own, the fields had water supplied by a local farmer who owned the water rights to the whole area "also a parish councillor" when we applied to live on site the water dissapeared!! So,,,,,,, We dug our own bore hole now loads of water ..No electrics , we starrted with a generator now on mains, gas // we use LPG big containers.
iT CAN BE DONE ,, WE HAVE DONE IT .
sit back and assess the situation and solve each problem systematically then have several pints...

[clarissa]

i bol----- ksed that up , appologies
When we started we had nothing on site of our own, the fields had water supplied by a local farmer who owned the water rights to the whole area "also a parish councillor" when we applied to live on site the water dissapeared!! So,,,,,,, We dug our own bore hole now loads of water ..No electrics , we starrted with a generator now on mains, gas // we use LPG big containers.
iT CAN BE DONE ,, WE HAVE DONE IT .
sit back and assess the situation and solve each problem systematically then have several pints...

[clarissa]

Hi Burl,
We have a well and a uv filtration system which supplies everything. We put mains water pipes in - but ran out of funds to connect.
Power is supplied via an ex mod generator
This council consultant also threw in a local policy HSG3 which relates to housing outside of development boundaries. I though a mobile home was not classed as housing?

[clarissa]

Hi Burl,
We have a well and a uv filtration system which supplies everything. We put mains water pipes in - but ran out of funds to connect.
Power is supplied via an ex mod generator
This council consultant also threw in a local policy HSG3 which relates to housing outside of development boundaries. I though a mobile home was not classed as housing?

we have a large LPG tank AND we even discussed alternative systems such as solar and wood burner to reduce impact on the environment - cant win

[pigman]

We had a refusal first time and went into panic mode

You can reapply for free after they have sent you the refusal letter addressing those grounds that they have refused you on - dont panic yet - keep us updated

[KChally]

Dont panic. Once you get your refusal you have 6 months to either appeal or put in another application. We also were refused the first time. I think your best bet is to put in another application rather than appeal, as if that is refused you have nowhere to go, so to speak.

It is just scare tactics. Good luck

KChally

[surreydodger]

Hi Clarissa,

Good news,, the Local Planning Authority's consultant is an idiot

I would need to read the whole transcript of his report and it would be helpful to know all the details but at a glance, the suggestion that you can run incubators on a professional basis from 8 miles away is tosh. Incubator breaks down then you need to be on hand to remedy it asap and forget some form of warning via remote control,,, too many other technical weakness' to consider.

No, you do not need mains electricity to run a successful business though it would be probably more economical if you did.

Send me a PM if you wish with all the relevant links and I'll happily look over it for you.

[pigman]

Apart from the FACT that no policy exists with regards sustainability in relation to having mains water or electricity - And you will need to call there bluff by asking them to produce this before you resubmit

1. for starters I can send you details of an allowable 3 year permission where a generator was used for electricity (for starters)

[clarissa]

[quote name='pigman' timestamp='1305840618' post='6999']
Apart from the FACT that no policy exists with regards sustainability in relation to having mains water or electricity - And you will need to call there bluff by asking them to produce this before you resubmit

1. for starters I can send you details of an allowable 3 year permission where a generator was used for electricity (for starters)
Hi Pigman,
I would appreciate that - the planning officer has given me 7 days to either determine ?? or withdraw

[pigman]

If you search this site for an application for a permanent dwelling at Taunton Deane you will see that the electricity was supplied by a generator this was also the source for power during the 3 year temp.

I would be careful what information you offer to the LPA at this stage because they may find other ways to refuse you - if they refuse you on this they have to justify thier reasons and if you can satify there "POLICY" recomendations for refusal then they must allow your application the next time around.

Good Luck and keep us updated.

[Cornish Gems]

How very frustrating to be turned down the first time. Did you by any chance put in a 28 day notice first for a barn before submitting your application for temporary? Because if so then you can stay on the land whilst you are building the barn. Or are there other building or engineering works you can carry out to enable you to stay on the land?

Otherwise, you appear to have two alternatives. However, the reasons for refusal seem so very manufactured that, if we were in your shoes, we would appeal rather than submit another application. If you read some of the cases, you can see that in many instances the inspectorate have overturned the council's decision.

Let surreydodger have all the details asap so that he can advise you on how best to word it all. Also, it would seem to help if appellants take along a witness or other evidence. Regarding the thefts etc we assume the police were notified and so perhaps they would help you by giving you details of the various offences. You also need the reference numbers for the other instances where generators have been used to show that the fact that you are not connected to the mains should not have any bearing on the matter.

We think that some photos of your enterprise would also be supportive. Good luck and we look forward to reading what happens.

[clarissa]

How very frustrating to be turned down the first time. Did you by any chance put in a 28 day notice first for a barn before submitting your application for temporary? Because if so then you can stay on the land whilst you are building the barn. Or are there other building or engineering works you can carry out to enable you to stay on the land?

Otherwise, you appear to have two alternatives. However, the reasons for refusal seem so very manufactured that, if we were in your shoes, we would appeal rather than submit another application. If you read some of the cases, you can see that in many instances the inspectorate have overturned the council's decision.

Let surreydodger have all the details asap so that he can advise you on how best to word it all. Also, it would seem to help if appellants take along a witness or other evidence. Regarding the thefts etc we assume the police were notified and so perhaps they would help you by giving you details of the various offences. You also need the reference numbers for the other instances where generators have been used to show that the fact that you are not connected to the mains should not have any bearing on the matter.

We think that some photos of your enterprise would also be supportive. Good luck and we look forward to reading what happens.

[clarissa]

Many thanks pigman & wurzel,

I managed to live here without planning permission for 18 months whilst engaged in renovating a brick barn. Someone grassed me up and the council people turned up one day - then the fun began.

Its not the first time we have had to do battle as we won planning for farm track, polys, office and mess room on appeal in 2006. Shortly after this was won, other half encountered a head injury which stopped play for over 3 years.

Work was not completed so if needs must we could become busy building though I think the 5 years planning permission is up in the next couple of months.

Yes most of the incidents have indeed been reported and I kept the police letters.
I also recorded the deaths incurred as a result of not being here when needed. (well record of everything in the on-farm book that ended up at the local hunt)

I have sent all the details as suggested so I can hopefully find enough holes in this consultant's report.

[Groundhog]

Many thanks pigman & wurzel,

I managed to live here without planning permission for 18 months whilst engaged in renovating a brick barn. Someone grassed me up and the council people turned up one day - then the fun began.

Its not the first time we have had to do battle as we won planning for farm track, polys, office and mess room on appeal in 2006. Shortly after this was won, other half encountered a head injury which stopped play for over 3 years.

Work was not completed so if needs must we could become busy building though I think the 5 years planning permission is up in the next couple of months.

Yes most of the incidents have indeed been reported and I kept the police letters.
I also recorded the deaths incurred as a result of not being here when needed. (well record of everything in the on-farm book that ended up at the local hunt)

I have sent all the details as suggested so I can hopefully find enough holes in this consultant's report.

[Groundhog]

All the people who have responded to you are doing it and have given reasons not to give up.
If they are only going to refuse you on this one small area and as sd says the consultant is a T*****,you only have to discredit this one point they obviously accept your financial and functional need otherwise.The fact you are off grid is all the more reason to be on site to change gas and refuel etc.I have no services and rely on wind and sun and own water supply

[clarissa]

All the people who have responded to you are doing it and have given reasons not to give up.
If they are only going to refuse you on this one small area and as sd says the consultant is a T*****,you only have to discredit this one point they obviously accept your financial and functional need otherwise.The fact you are off grid is all the more reason to be on site to change gas and refuel etc.I have no services and rely on wind and sun and own water supply

[che]

We had a refusal first time and went into panic mode

You can reapply for free after they have sent you the refusal letter addressing those grounds that they have refused you on - dont panic yet - keep us updated

I would like to thank Pigman for this post. Sound advice to use your second free application before going to appeal. Gives you the opportunity to fine tune your application. Planners will try to keep their case from you till the last minute to make life difficult and increase their chances of turning down your application.

[clarissa]

I would like to thank Pigman for this post. Sound advice to use your second free application before going to appeal. Gives you the opportunity to fine tune your application. Planners will try to keep their case from you till the last minute to make life difficult and increase their chances of turning down your application.

Hi yes a very big thank you to pigman and everyone else especially Surreydodger.
Just thought I would post an update
One of the main reasons listed for denying planning was the fact that we did not score enough standard man hours SMDs to warrant being required beyond 63 hours per year despite over 400 poultry, gas incubators, brooders and approx 60 mini (oops I mean piglets) pigs on site.

We are nothing like a commerical set up, with commercial modern production methods. Everything runs free most of the time.
I decided to challenge this and sent an email to Mr John Nix author of the SMD and Nix's Pocket Handbook. I was referred to their senior agricultural planning advisor responsible for data with regards to costs, profits and labour etc which is published in the handbook.
I explained that LPA s were using their publication against many people simply trying to live off their land or those bringing neglected parcels of land back into production.

We basically ended up with a free consultation via the phone then 2 hour visit from the senior consultant.
It was agreed that the use of SMD s was not enough on their own to capture the labour requirements of our enterprise. It would require a different formula. Good news if anyone is thinking of challenging this criterea.
The consultant stated that it was obviious we were genuine and agreed that we should easily meet both the functional and financial criterea and offered to compile a report and representation for our pending appeal. (at a cost).
We were advised to keep a diary of daily activities and provide more accurate costs associated with the different projects. We were also advised to seek support from a local planning consultant who could act as the interface between us and the council as they could 'speak the planning lingo'.

We followed the advice provided on the day which was more than helpful and gathered some more convincing and accurate figures. We did decide to contact a local planning consultant who had won several cases recently in this area, also as advised by Pigman.
The local guy advised 'jumping through the hoops' to satisfy the SMD criterea and revise the longer term numbers of livestock to meet both the financial and functional targets. (on paper anyway) He recommended we submitted another application as opposed to going to appeal.
If I submit a revised application, surely this will stand a better chance then debating the existing refusal?
Clarissa