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It would be unlikely that any members of the forum which didn't come into being in december 2009 would have had sufficient time to have spent 5 years on the land. In the same vein that the book was only published in February 2009.
As I state in the book a softly softly approach needs to be taken with the planners initially avoiding all confrontation and it is possible to eek out the building time if this is approached using manual methods for most of the building operations. Digging the holes by hand, mixing the concrete by hand etc etc and keeping some kind of work schedule which can be shown to the council or any planning inspector on appeal.
The law says that you must be engaged in the works and says nothing about being primarily engaged, it just says that you must be engaged. Every judgement that I have seen.. none cover the system that I advocate to use in the book.
All examples that I have seen on the site are of course subjective. Most of them seem to involve long continuous breaks in the construction works and this is where they don't comply with the wording of the relevent acts or judgements.
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building a barn and debate about book
Started By
Guest_Dave_*
, 06 Mar 2011 11:20
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#2
Guest_Dave_*
Posted 06 March 2011 - 11:48
Guest_Dave_*
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One further point is that once you are living on the land you are in a far stronger position than attempting to get onto the land using the planning system. The appeal procedures then work in your favour because their duration is so long. Really even if an enforcement is served, by the time it is appealed, and any inspector will always give you time to react, normally up to a year, in the meantime you can make more planning applications and have more appeals if you feel the need.
It is unfortunate that we have to use these delaying tactics because I believe the LPA's have become 'wise' to the field to farm system and are using the preverbial sledge hammer to crack the nut.
Once upon a time you would be left alone if you were using permitted development and nothing would be said if you lived in a caravan if you were engaged in construction works. Just because the LPA's are now taking an interest and putting pressure on people does not mean that your rights have changed.
It is unfortunate that we have to use these delaying tactics because I believe the LPA's have become 'wise' to the field to farm system and are using the preverbial sledge hammer to crack the nut.
Once upon a time you would be left alone if you were using permitted development and nothing would be said if you lived in a caravan if you were engaged in construction works. Just because the LPA's are now taking an interest and putting pressure on people does not mean that your rights have changed.
#3
Posted 06 March 2011 - 12:13
Sapphire
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- Book Owners
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Goose
- LocationHertfordshire
Hi Dave
I hear what you say about the length of time that the book has been published and the forum has been available, but do you know of anyone on the forum (or anywhere) who has been able to live on their 5 hectares (following the f2f system) without making a planning application for any length of time, never mind 5 years ?
I hear what you say about the length of time that the book has been published and the forum has been available, but do you know of anyone on the forum (or anywhere) who has been able to live on their 5 hectares (following the f2f system) without making a planning application for any length of time, never mind 5 years ?
#4
Guest_Dave_*
Posted 06 March 2011 - 12:20
Guest_Dave_*
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Throughout my time as a planning consultant I have known many people that have inadvertently used the field to farm system, eventually ending up with a permanent dwelling. Under data protection laws I am not able to give out their information. As time goes on you will see successes on the forum.
As for your particular situation I understand that you have approximately 30 acres of land located in Hertfordshire. This in itself is worth a small fortune and you are using it for horses. Your aim appears to be to get your son a development. I suggest you try to get permission for a dwelling on your own land.
As for your particular situation I understand that you have approximately 30 acres of land located in Hertfordshire. This in itself is worth a small fortune and you are using it for horses. Your aim appears to be to get your son a development. I suggest you try to get permission for a dwelling on your own land.
#5
Posted 06 March 2011 - 12:39
Sapphire
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Goose
- LocationHertfordshire
Hi Dave
I think you've hit the nail on the head with "Once upon a time" and the system may well prove to be a fairytale !
You say that LPA's have got wise to the f2f system, and to be honest this forum won't have helped f2f supporters in that regard. Unfortunately it is unlikely that anyone will now be left alone for any length of time to build their barn because the LPA know exactly what the game is.
Planning is a game and you only win the game if you play it better than the Planning Department. Whilst all the info that is raised on this site is helpful to members, it will help the LPA keep ahead of the game.
They will continue to crack nuts with a sledgehammer and so will the Planning Inspectors. They are all cut from the same cloth and they will close rank.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with "Once upon a time" and the system may well prove to be a fairytale !
You say that LPA's have got wise to the f2f system, and to be honest this forum won't have helped f2f supporters in that regard. Unfortunately it is unlikely that anyone will now be left alone for any length of time to build their barn because the LPA know exactly what the game is.
Planning is a game and you only win the game if you play it better than the Planning Department. Whilst all the info that is raised on this site is helpful to members, it will help the LPA keep ahead of the game.
They will continue to crack nuts with a sledgehammer and so will the Planning Inspectors. They are all cut from the same cloth and they will close rank.
#6
Guest_Dave_*
Posted 06 March 2011 - 12:45
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Without the site and the book nobody would have known about this system. While it is true that things may become more difficult the premise of the book still stands. The book is based upon quite simple planning law and nothing has changed in that regard since the publication of the book.
The LPA's have noticed and make noises to put you off. This is not the same as the system being invalid, it just means you need thicker skin.
We already have a planning office that posts on the forum and this must only be necessary because the ftf system is working. They must feel threatened and they have started to use dirty tricks. These tricks can be used to our advantage too as will be shown in the revised copy of field to farm.
It's certainly not a fairy tale but it is living the dream
The LPA's have noticed and make noises to put you off. This is not the same as the system being invalid, it just means you need thicker skin.
We already have a planning office that posts on the forum and this must only be necessary because the ftf system is working. They must feel threatened and they have started to use dirty tricks. These tricks can be used to our advantage too as will be shown in the revised copy of field to farm.
It's certainly not a fairy tale but it is living the dream
#7
Posted 06 March 2011 - 12:53
Sapphire
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Goose
- LocationHertfordshire
Hi Dave
I've already built a house on my land, first with permission for a mobile home and 3 years after applying for a house. But when I got your book, my son was interested in following your system on a neighbouring plot (that actually hasn't come up for sale yet, but it will) breeding Alpaca's, but as I've said in an earlier post, I've lost confidence in the f2f system now.
By the way, I wouldn't say that my place is worth a small fortune, it's obviously worth more than it cost, but I bought it a long time ago, in 1988, and land prices have naturally gone up. Also getting permission for the house has made it worth more, but not as much as some people might think because it has an equestrian tie.
However, that doesn't bother me, because I'm never going to sell it anyway and the tie allows me certain tax breaks.
I've already built a house on my land, first with permission for a mobile home and 3 years after applying for a house. But when I got your book, my son was interested in following your system on a neighbouring plot (that actually hasn't come up for sale yet, but it will) breeding Alpaca's, but as I've said in an earlier post, I've lost confidence in the f2f system now.
By the way, I wouldn't say that my place is worth a small fortune, it's obviously worth more than it cost, but I bought it a long time ago, in 1988, and land prices have naturally gone up. Also getting permission for the house has made it worth more, but not as much as some people might think because it has an equestrian tie.
However, that doesn't bother me, because I'm never going to sell it anyway and the tie allows me certain tax breaks.
#8
Posted 06 March 2011 - 12:58
Sapphire
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Goose
- LocationHertfordshire
Hi Dave
I'm looking forward to seeing the revised copy. I'm a big fan of your book and have learnt a lot from it, it's just that some things that look like they should work on paper don't always work in practice, and I think that the f2f system may be one of those things.
I will continure to study the forum and hope that my confidence in the system is reinstated.
I'm looking forward to seeing the revised copy. I'm a big fan of your book and have learnt a lot from it, it's just that some things that look like they should work on paper don't always work in practice, and I think that the f2f system may be one of those things.
I will continure to study the forum and hope that my confidence in the system is reinstated.
#9
Posted 06 March 2011 - 13:01
surreydodger
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Agricultural Planning Advisory Service
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I feel the concept is more than living the dream. It is going to be more of a case of changing the way our rural community and agricultural industry operate. Much of the countryside is looked upon by the authorities and empowered as some kind of museum, to be admired and used as some kind of museum or recreational area (with 'Do Not Touch The Exhibits' signs everywhere ).
A couple of years back, I spent a few weeks in Slovenia. I had never been there nor knew anyone else who had. I knew it was part of former Yugoslavia and that was about it. I confess to expecting to find somewhere a bit backward and behind the times, so to speak. I suspect many others would possibly think the same thing.
The reality was that prices of most things were the same there as here. It is now a fact of the times, that the days of cheaper European countries have long gone,, anyone been to Spain, Greece or other such previously considered' cheap' countries. The prices are the same as here if not pricier on some things.
The one fact that struck me was the use of small parcels of land for agriculture. Nowhere did I come across the barren fields as I see here in the south east and have witnessed nationwide. Land obviously owned by someone who has no need to make a return from their ownership, hence it lays fallow and redundant. No, in Slovenia, every bit of land is used, predominantly by smallhoders such as those here on the forum. There must be a whole industry supporting these business' from machinery suppliers to building and construction to fit the purpose.
Here in the UK, we seem to still be demeaning to the smallholder (hobby farmer my arse!!) and the powers that be do not wish to see countryside littered with smallholdings. I hope F2F goes someway to shattering such outdated illusions and practices.
).A couple of years back, I spent a few weeks in Slovenia. I had never been there nor knew anyone else who had. I knew it was part of former Yugoslavia and that was about it. I confess to expecting to find somewhere a bit backward and behind the times, so to speak. I suspect many others would possibly think the same thing.
The reality was that prices of most things were the same there as here. It is now a fact of the times, that the days of cheaper European countries have long gone,, anyone been to Spain, Greece or other such previously considered' cheap' countries. The prices are the same as here if not pricier on some things.
The one fact that struck me was the use of small parcels of land for agriculture. Nowhere did I come across the barren fields as I see here in the south east and have witnessed nationwide. Land obviously owned by someone who has no need to make a return from their ownership, hence it lays fallow and redundant. No, in Slovenia, every bit of land is used, predominantly by smallhoders such as those here on the forum. There must be a whole industry supporting these business' from machinery suppliers to building and construction to fit the purpose.
Here in the UK, we seem to still be demeaning to the smallholder (hobby farmer my arse!!) and the powers that be do not wish to see countryside littered with smallholdings. I hope F2F goes someway to shattering such outdated illusions and practices.
#10
Guest_Dave_*
Posted 06 March 2011 - 13:12
Guest_Dave_*
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Hi Dave
I will continue to study the forum and hope that my confidence in the system is reinstated.
I have been away for some time due to ill health. People only come to the forum when they have problems so you are likely to get a very negative view. I hope you enjoy the new book and may start to showcase some successes in the future.
However, this forum is for support and so you will only ever see the bad side of the fence.
#11
Posted 06 March 2011 - 16:54
Sapphire
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Goose
- LocationHertfordshire
Hi Dave
I've seen quite a few posts from people who were just starting out and were looking at potential sites or had just bought one with a view to starting down the f2f route, but have gone on to have problems, so I don't think that it is the case that everyone on the forum has come on because they are having problems.
I've seen quite a few posts from people who were just starting out and were looking at potential sites or had just bought one with a view to starting down the f2f route, but have gone on to have problems, so I don't think that it is the case that everyone on the forum has come on because they are having problems.
#12
Posted 06 March 2011 - 17:04
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Littlest Hobo
I've read quite a bit of the forum now and see a wide spectrum of results. From Cornish Gems who seem to have very nice planning officers and seem to be doing well with their land up to and including the veteran surrey dodger having issues with his track. People drop on and get their planning questions answered and go on their merry way.
The system stands up to scrutiny from a planning perspective. We've seen that with characters like wiseowl who are looking for any method they can to debunk the claims but fail to find even the smallest of holes. There can't be any doubt of the system contained within the book... there are many planning cases where you can see people have lived for years on their land while engaged in agricultural works (even while taking the mickey in most). Whether the person following the scheme has what it takes is another thing. It looks like a hard life to me but then I never aspired to be a farmer, to those that do this is their ticket out of the rat race.
Steve
The system stands up to scrutiny from a planning perspective. We've seen that with characters like wiseowl who are looking for any method they can to debunk the claims but fail to find even the smallest of holes. There can't be any doubt of the system contained within the book... there are many planning cases where you can see people have lived for years on their land while engaged in agricultural works (even while taking the mickey in most). Whether the person following the scheme has what it takes is another thing. It looks like a hard life to me but then I never aspired to be a farmer, to those that do this is their ticket out of the rat race.
Steve
#13
Posted 06 March 2011 - 18:10
Groundhog
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Maybe there should be a warning on the book like cigarettes as you have put it very well "Whether the person is upto it",I personally dont think it should be that easy otherwise there would be plots all over the place with C### festooned everywhere,and then managing to claim benefits as well !.SD mentioned traveling in eastern europe where there are many self sufficient small plots.I too have seen this in Asia the difference is culture,and I agree that more small units will inturn encourage more local spend,and inturn revive community,which has been ripped away by the Tesco Mob (Mind you they are doing a buy one get one free on hot cross buns at the minute).Also there is not the welfare state so they rely on family,and they work and grow things instead of signing on !
#14
Posted 06 March 2011 - 19:28
Sapphire
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- 62 posts
Goose
- LocationHertfordshire
Maybe there should be a warning on the book
I agree, a warning that not everyone will be able to cope with the trials and tribulations would be a good idea. My beef is that the inference is that there is legislation in place that will protect you from having to make a planning application but it doesn't fully prepare you for the fact that you may have to fight tooth and nail to be able to use it.
Some people won't appreciate that they are going to have to fight in court until they are too far down the line. I do think that they should have some kind of warning.
It is generally agreed that not everyone will be successful with Dave's system, even Dave agrees this. Some won't be able to cope mentally with what they're put through. I feel for them.
#15
Posted 06 March 2011 - 20:01
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Littlest Hobo
The planning laws, as used by the ftf system do mean that you are protected from having to make a planning application. That's kind of the point of the book and whenever I've seen any planning law aspects of the book debated it has never shaken the fact that what the book says is correct. The website is quite open about the financial tests at the end. Just because planners choose to take you on and lose from time to time doesn't mean we should feel for these people.
The book it explains your legal rights. It doesn't prevent the planners from hounding you in some cases, others not (look at Cornish Gems for instance). It depends whether you follow the advice in the book and the luck of the draw with regards to your LPA (sometimes their knowledge, other times their attitude). We get a lot of people on here who come on with a problem. It's a bit like a car garage... if that's all you saw every day wouldn't you think that every car is unreliable?
As Groundhog says do we really want it to be easy? The system should sort out those who want to build an agricultural business from the greedy who just want a development. I personally think it does a good job of putting everyone off and ftf at least puts the ball back in your court and gives you a very good chance.
This topic was originally about the 5 years stated in the book. If you have doubts let's address them in planning law so that people can address your doubts with quotes from the relevent laws, planning cases and legislation. If you want to debate 'is it worth it' then please create another thread. I personally think that for £27 that people should read and make up their own minds. It can be fun.. look at Dave C and SD who positively revel in the planning aspects. I often think the farming is a bit of a distraction from them fighting the LPA's lol
The book it explains your legal rights. It doesn't prevent the planners from hounding you in some cases, others not (look at Cornish Gems for instance). It depends whether you follow the advice in the book and the luck of the draw with regards to your LPA (sometimes their knowledge, other times their attitude). We get a lot of people on here who come on with a problem. It's a bit like a car garage... if that's all you saw every day wouldn't you think that every car is unreliable?
As Groundhog says do we really want it to be easy? The system should sort out those who want to build an agricultural business from the greedy who just want a development. I personally think it does a good job of putting everyone off and ftf at least puts the ball back in your court and gives you a very good chance.
This topic was originally about the 5 years stated in the book. If you have doubts let's address them in planning law so that people can address your doubts with quotes from the relevent laws, planning cases and legislation. If you want to debate 'is it worth it' then please create another thread. I personally think that for £27 that people should read and make up their own minds. It can be fun.. look at Dave C and SD who positively revel in the planning aspects. I often think the farming is a bit of a distraction from them fighting the LPA's lol
#16
Posted 06 March 2011 - 20:40
Sapphire
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Goose
- LocationHertfordshire
You are missing my point. I don't mean that I feel for the planners, I feel for the people that you say have got some equity in their house, who sell their house, buy some land with a view to following the f2f system, with no prior warning that they will have to fight through the courts in order to try and use the legislation that should protect them from making a planning application. All I'm saying is that they should have some warning. It would be better for Dave's book if the number of failures are reduced.
If as you say not everyone will be successful. wouldn't it be better if only the ones that are likely to be successful take it on, so that the others don't fail and lose a load of money in the process. And don't say that they won't lose money because the land will still be worth money, because there will be costs involved, not planning application costs but court costs, and the cost of siting homes that will have to go.
At the end of the day you can show no evidence that anyone has ever been successful at living on their land for 5 years without applying for permission.
If as you say not everyone will be successful. wouldn't it be better if only the ones that are likely to be successful take it on, so that the others don't fail and lose a load of money in the process. And don't say that they won't lose money because the land will still be worth money, because there will be costs involved, not planning application costs but court costs, and the cost of siting homes that will have to go.
At the end of the day you can show no evidence that anyone has ever been successful at living on their land for 5 years without applying for permission.
#17
Posted 06 March 2011 - 20:48
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Littlest Hobo
Nobody can say whether anyone will go to court or not. If LPA's follow the rules as laid out in the various planning laws then there should be no need. Nobody knows whether you will have a nice easy time until you can meet the viability tests or if you'll get hounded out of the village and resort to selling your land to gypsies.
At the end of the day it's up to the book owner. They read the book and decide for themselves. Of course you are going to get challenged and there's no certainty you can always meet the viability test. If you can't then you get ample time to pack up and move on.
Land goes up in value. Look at yours.. £5k in 1988, I'd be surprised if it wasn't worth over a million nowadays considering its location (I'm just around the corner in Watford so know the prices).
There is plenty of evidence for people living on site during construction works for over 5 years. I'll let others dig out and post the relevent appeal cases that show this to have been the case. Perhaps I'm missing the point on that bit also
At the end of the day it's up to the book owner. They read the book and decide for themselves. Of course you are going to get challenged and there's no certainty you can always meet the viability test. If you can't then you get ample time to pack up and move on.
Land goes up in value. Look at yours.. £5k in 1988, I'd be surprised if it wasn't worth over a million nowadays considering its location (I'm just around the corner in Watford so know the prices).
There is plenty of evidence for people living on site during construction works for over 5 years. I'll let others dig out and post the relevent appeal cases that show this to have been the case. Perhaps I'm missing the point on that bit also
#18
Posted 06 March 2011 - 21:20
Sapphire
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Goose
- LocationHertfordshire
How do you know my location other than that I'm in Hertfordshire ?
#19
Posted 06 March 2011 - 22:45
surreydodger
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Agricultural Planning Advisory Service
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Hi Sapphire,
I can understand your motivation is to see fair play but I am not sure where the possible foul play is coming from? F2F presents itself for all to see and read and digest. If the readers of F2F do not then look any further and blindly dive in following just one piece of advice, then sorry, but I have little sympathy for them if it were to go wrong. In this day and age, all the information one ever needed is on the internet, it just takes a bit of gumption to get up and do ones own research to find it.
You could just end up with a book full of useful info becoming another bland piece of litreture as each statement is then countered with some kind of 'Shares and stocks can go down as well as up' blurb.
As to how does Steve know where you live, he doesn't. He merely retorts that he can appreciate and reconcile the financial position you are probably positioned within by the deduction that he lives in Watford, Watford is in Hertfordshire Dave A, his father, has had a career in property and understand their values and thus when you put all those very basic tenents of information together, one can therefore conclude by elementary deduction and information given by yourself that as you live in the same County as each other, figuritively speaking, you are both 'just around the corner' from one another.
I can understand your motivation is to see fair play but I am not sure where the possible foul play is coming from? F2F presents itself for all to see and read and digest. If the readers of F2F do not then look any further and blindly dive in following just one piece of advice, then sorry, but I have little sympathy for them if it were to go wrong. In this day and age, all the information one ever needed is on the internet, it just takes a bit of gumption to get up and do ones own research to find it.
You could just end up with a book full of useful info becoming another bland piece of litreture as each statement is then countered with some kind of 'Shares and stocks can go down as well as up' blurb.
As to how does Steve know where you live, he doesn't. He merely retorts that he can appreciate and reconcile the financial position you are probably positioned within by the deduction that he lives in Watford, Watford is in Hertfordshire Dave A, his father, has had a career in property and understand their values and thus when you put all those very basic tenents of information together, one can therefore conclude by elementary deduction and information given by yourself that as you live in the same County as each other, figuritively speaking, you are both 'just around the corner' from one another.
#20
Posted 06 March 2011 - 23:06
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Littlest Hobo
Seems a bit touchy lol
To be honest S.D is correct. However, from the reaction I'd bet it's somewhere very expensive
I'm going to be slightly unkind because you've come and criticised something, been told the answers and yet continue to go on about it (sounds like my girlfriends). The system is relatively new, people tend not to publicise success (in the same way you don't like saying how much your land might now be worth). They come on here for support and you see grief.
For a person in your position I'd do the right thing and carve out your son a piece of your land and let him apply for planning permission on it. You don't sound badly off and do seem to be trying to use this for financial gain. If your son was really that interested he'd read the book, come on here and ask some questions and make his own mind up. I know for a fact I'd hate my mum dictating to me what I should be doing. She does try from time to time however.
To be honest S.D is correct. However, from the reaction I'd bet it's somewhere very expensive
I'm going to be slightly unkind because you've come and criticised something, been told the answers and yet continue to go on about it (sounds like my girlfriends). The system is relatively new, people tend not to publicise success (in the same way you don't like saying how much your land might now be worth). They come on here for support and you see grief.
For a person in your position I'd do the right thing and carve out your son a piece of your land and let him apply for planning permission on it. You don't sound badly off and do seem to be trying to use this for financial gain. If your son was really that interested he'd read the book, come on here and ask some questions and make his own mind up. I know for a fact I'd hate my mum dictating to me what I should be doing. She does try from time to time however.
