Field to Farm
Sign In
Create Account
is minimum wage the national standard or the agricultural min wage? if agricultural, what level?
Welcome to Field to Farm Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
how much is the minimum wage?
Started By
charlotte
, 24 Apr 2010 22:40
Back to top
#2
Posted 24 April 2010 - 22:59
surreydodger
-
- Book Owners
-
- 1,208 posts
Agricultural Planning Advisory Service
- LocationWest Sussex
There is a bit of debate over this but as the government seem to state that the national minimum wage is sufficient, then that should eb the figure to go by.
#3
Posted 24 April 2010 - 23:14
charlotte
-
- Book Owners
-
- 27 posts
Member
thanks. i was told by a friend who is looking to try for permanent permission that it was a higher amount - i think he mentioned �17.5K about.
#4
Posted 24 April 2010 - 23:43
surreydodger
-
- Book Owners
-
- 1,208 posts
Agricultural Planning Advisory Service
- LocationWest Sussex
As I say, there is some debate and it appears to vary from Council to Council. A well presented set of facts as to why and what the National minimum wage is considered to be should see common sense prevail. Obviously, the more you can demonstrate as a sustainable profit, the better.
#5
Posted 25 April 2010 - 01:41
admin
-
- Administrators
-
- 638 posts
Littlest Hobo
I think if you can demonstrate �10k you should be OK.
#6
Guest_Dave_*
Posted 25 April 2010 - 05:52
Guest_Dave_*
Guest_Dave_*
-
- Guests
Hi
The minimum wage is sufficient to live on in planning terms, the reason the planners look for more is to service a mortgage for the building costs of the permanent dwelling. However if you use a log cabin when you move onto the land and want to live in it as a permanent dwelling after you have got permission for it then this should negate the need for the additional money for a mortgage.
The minimum wage is sufficient to live on in planning terms, the reason the planners look for more is to service a mortgage for the building costs of the permanent dwelling. However if you use a log cabin when you move onto the land and want to live in it as a permanent dwelling after you have got permission for it then this should negate the need for the additional money for a mortgage.
#7
Posted 28 April 2010 - 18:52
Groundhog
-
- Book Owners
-
- 1,081 posts
Member
If you are meeting the financial needs to stay on your land you are running an agric business so therefore the agricultural wages board is the figure you need to aim for (not national average wages) a standard worker earns around 11 k per annumis minimum wage the national standard or the agricultural min wage? if agricultural, what level?
#8
Guest_Dave_*
Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:02
Guest_Dave_*
Guest_Dave_*
-
- Guests
Hi
I will be putting this under up dates to the book, it should give you more information about the minimum wage and what the planners are looking for.
Viability (financial)
You will need to prove that the holding is viable. A set of accounts (or a copy will suffice), which has been submitted to the Inland Revenue is the sort of documentation required. It should show that you earned the minimum wage for 1 year out of 3. The calculation is: prevailing legal minimum wage per hour x 40 hours a week x 50 weeks of the year; this will give a figure of how much profit you will need to earn. This is being altered by the planners all the time in an effort to stop people getting planning permission for a permanent dwelling in the countryside. The latest thing is to use consultants or the county land agent to calculate what is a viable profit from your smallholding, and figures as high as £22,000 per annum have been quoted. The reason given for this is that you would need additional money over and above the minimum wage to pay for any mortgage costs for the building of the permanent dwelling. Getting planning permission for a permanent dwelling does not mean you have to build a house, you can still live in the mobile home. Therefore it must follow that if you put a log cabin type mobile home on your land and wish to continue to live in it after you have got planning permission for a permanent dwelling, this would negate the need for the additional profit required to service any mortgage. If your planning application fails you must appeal, you will get a fairer hearing from a planning inspector who judges the application on its planning merits without local bias against all development.
It should still be your endeavour to earn as much money as possible as there is a relationship between your income and the size of the house that is permitted. You will be allowed to build a house, but based on the minimum wage the house would be quite small, and your personal wealth will not be taken into consideration, always remember the permanent dwelling is there to serve the holding not you. The total income from the holding is the figure you will be putting in from all of the enterprises, not just the main animal business.
Productivity
The planners who are constantly looking for ways to stop anyone setting up a smallholding seem to have added another test to the three which already exist.
This has not of course been done openly but as usual by the back door. The latest thing is the productivity of the worker on the holding. The permanent dwelling would only be given planning permission if the person who was to live in it met the three tests, functional need, viability, and sustainability. These tests could only be met if the worker works full time on the holding (40 hours per week). The way this is measured is not just with the viability test but also by giving animal enterprises minimum numbers you would need to keep. As an example you would need to keep at least 50 sows and followers for this to be regarded as a full time job (at least 40 hours a week) so there must be some calculation that is used to give various animals’ time values. Another example is you would need to keep 10,000 free range chickens producing eggs for it to qualify for planning for a permanent dwelling. Where the planners will come unstuck using this system is if there is a wide diversity of animal enterprises on the holding. It really does seem odd that farmers can have part time jobs because they cannot earn sufficient money from their farms but you as a potential smallholder cannot.
I will be putting this under up dates to the book, it should give you more information about the minimum wage and what the planners are looking for.
Viability (financial)
You will need to prove that the holding is viable. A set of accounts (or a copy will suffice), which has been submitted to the Inland Revenue is the sort of documentation required. It should show that you earned the minimum wage for 1 year out of 3. The calculation is: prevailing legal minimum wage per hour x 40 hours a week x 50 weeks of the year; this will give a figure of how much profit you will need to earn. This is being altered by the planners all the time in an effort to stop people getting planning permission for a permanent dwelling in the countryside. The latest thing is to use consultants or the county land agent to calculate what is a viable profit from your smallholding, and figures as high as £22,000 per annum have been quoted. The reason given for this is that you would need additional money over and above the minimum wage to pay for any mortgage costs for the building of the permanent dwelling. Getting planning permission for a permanent dwelling does not mean you have to build a house, you can still live in the mobile home. Therefore it must follow that if you put a log cabin type mobile home on your land and wish to continue to live in it after you have got planning permission for a permanent dwelling, this would negate the need for the additional profit required to service any mortgage. If your planning application fails you must appeal, you will get a fairer hearing from a planning inspector who judges the application on its planning merits without local bias against all development.
It should still be your endeavour to earn as much money as possible as there is a relationship between your income and the size of the house that is permitted. You will be allowed to build a house, but based on the minimum wage the house would be quite small, and your personal wealth will not be taken into consideration, always remember the permanent dwelling is there to serve the holding not you. The total income from the holding is the figure you will be putting in from all of the enterprises, not just the main animal business.
Productivity
The planners who are constantly looking for ways to stop anyone setting up a smallholding seem to have added another test to the three which already exist.
This has not of course been done openly but as usual by the back door. The latest thing is the productivity of the worker on the holding. The permanent dwelling would only be given planning permission if the person who was to live in it met the three tests, functional need, viability, and sustainability. These tests could only be met if the worker works full time on the holding (40 hours per week). The way this is measured is not just with the viability test but also by giving animal enterprises minimum numbers you would need to keep. As an example you would need to keep at least 50 sows and followers for this to be regarded as a full time job (at least 40 hours a week) so there must be some calculation that is used to give various animals’ time values. Another example is you would need to keep 10,000 free range chickens producing eggs for it to qualify for planning for a permanent dwelling. Where the planners will come unstuck using this system is if there is a wide diversity of animal enterprises on the holding. It really does seem odd that farmers can have part time jobs because they cannot earn sufficient money from their farms but you as a potential smallholder cannot.
#9
Posted 30 April 2010 - 10:21
Cornish Gems
-
- Book Owners
-
- 1,597 posts
Lord and Lady of the Manor
- LocationCornwall (formerly Devon)
Looking at all the data available regarding minimum wage it is a bucket of worms.
Lets look at the agriculture wage minimum for an adult over 21yrs.
A Grade 2 worker ie General Workers the minimum wage is £249.60 per week, £12,979.20 per year.
A Grade 6 worker ie Farm Managers the minimum wage is £336.96 per week, £17,521.92 per year.
Now lets look at this backwards, to get to £17,000 per annum net profit before tax. If we assume that you will have overheads of approx 25% of turnover and direct costs of 50% turnover being in mind the cost of feed, vets, etc. this gives a total of 75% of turnover in costs. therefore the £17K is the difference representing 25% turnover therefore your smallholding must generate a turnover of £68,000 pa.
To generate 25% Net Profit before tax would be extremely good in my view as very few farms do this well, given the market price for Beef, Pork and the farm gate price of milk.
I think planners who try to enforce a large value on the minimum wage are out of touch with reality. Small holders have to scrimp and save every penny just to keep livestock and businesses going, no smallholder ever made a direct fortune from their livestock or produce. Most small holders do it for the life style, what is earned is a bonus be it very much welcomed.
Phill and Marita
Lets look at the agriculture wage minimum for an adult over 21yrs.
A Grade 2 worker ie General Workers the minimum wage is £249.60 per week, £12,979.20 per year.
A Grade 6 worker ie Farm Managers the minimum wage is £336.96 per week, £17,521.92 per year.
Now lets look at this backwards, to get to £17,000 per annum net profit before tax. If we assume that you will have overheads of approx 25% of turnover and direct costs of 50% turnover being in mind the cost of feed, vets, etc. this gives a total of 75% of turnover in costs. therefore the £17K is the difference representing 25% turnover therefore your smallholding must generate a turnover of £68,000 pa.
To generate 25% Net Profit before tax would be extremely good in my view as very few farms do this well, given the market price for Beef, Pork and the farm gate price of milk.
I think planners who try to enforce a large value on the minimum wage are out of touch with reality. Small holders have to scrimp and save every penny just to keep livestock and businesses going, no smallholder ever made a direct fortune from their livestock or produce. Most small holders do it for the life style, what is earned is a bonus be it very much welcomed.
Phill and Marita
#10
Posted 30 April 2010 - 12:25
Groundhog
-
- Book Owners
-
- 1,081 posts
Member
It is very cloudy when you start trying to guestimate costs,net profit,turnover etc.Dont forget the easiset way to increase your income is to get additional work off of the holding which can be related to agriculture and local(there is no specific distance quoted)Part time work be it fruit picking, harvest work will add up to your minimum wage quicker than trying to make 60p on half a dozen eggs !
#11
Posted 30 April 2010 - 13:20
PumpkinEater
-
- Book Owners
-
- 38 posts
Newbie
- LocationScotland
Hi Derek - there have been several threads which include this topic. Dave has stated on more than one occasion that it is the HOLDING that has to create at least the minimum wage and not what the smallholder earns. So therefore any money earned elsewhere cannot count for the means test - only what the land produces.
Rita
Rita
#12
Posted 30 April 2010 - 13:21
Cornish Gems
-
- Book Owners
-
- 1,597 posts
Lord and Lady of the Manor
- LocationCornwall (formerly Devon)
Derek,
You seem to be missing the point. The income is not you as an individual or both you and your spouse the income has to be generated by the holding. Otherwise people who have a good pension in excess of the minimum wage of say £20K pa would automatically qualify that is why it is said that it is the holding that must qualify.
As Dave says 'It really does seem odd that farmers can have part time jobs because they cannot earn sufficient money from their farms but you as a potential smallholder cannot. '
So even if you have jobs off the holding to support your selves this is not qualified as the income from your smallholding.
Phill
You seem to be missing the point. The income is not you as an individual or both you and your spouse the income has to be generated by the holding. Otherwise people who have a good pension in excess of the minimum wage of say £20K pa would automatically qualify that is why it is said that it is the holding that must qualify.
As Dave says 'It really does seem odd that farmers can have part time jobs because they cannot earn sufficient money from their farms but you as a potential smallholder cannot. '
So even if you have jobs off the holding to support your selves this is not qualified as the income from your smallholding.
Phill
#13
Posted 30 April 2010 - 15:37
Groundhog
-
- Book Owners
-
- 1,081 posts
Member
It depends what your final goal is,to live on the land or to build on the land Justification for living on the land in a "Temporary Structure" permitted developement states off of the holding,or working in agriculture locally,im not refering to pensions or other monies,but income that is earned localy,I am only meaning part time.Maybe referring to it as an Agricultural unit and not smallholding.Is that correct that income earned localy will not be included in the financial means test,by the planners Regards Derek
#14
Posted 30 April 2010 - 16:03
Cornish Gems
-
- Book Owners
-
- 1,597 posts
Lord and Lady of the Manor
- LocationCornwall (formerly Devon)
Derek,
No matter how you wish to live on the land be it a log cabin or a three bedroom brick built house you still have to fullfill the finacial viability test and as Dave has said 'The latest thing is to use consultants or the county land agent to calculate what is a viable profit from your smallholding, and figures as high as £22,000 per annum have been quoted. The reason given for this is that you would need additional money over and above the minimum wage to pay for any mortgage costs for the building of the permanent dwelling.'
They are not looking at what you want but what you can afford based on the income you can glean from your holding, or agriculture unit. So it seems that the planners are stacking things against you. But in most cases discussion and common sense do eventually prevail.
However the Viability Test is as previously stated ie the profit generated by the Holding/Agri Unit. It does not take into account what you have or what other income you have coming in.
This is because you are wanting to live on agricultural land therefore the land should support what you need and support your planned accomodation.
Phill
No matter how you wish to live on the land be it a log cabin or a three bedroom brick built house you still have to fullfill the finacial viability test and as Dave has said 'The latest thing is to use consultants or the county land agent to calculate what is a viable profit from your smallholding, and figures as high as £22,000 per annum have been quoted. The reason given for this is that you would need additional money over and above the minimum wage to pay for any mortgage costs for the building of the permanent dwelling.'
They are not looking at what you want but what you can afford based on the income you can glean from your holding, or agriculture unit. So it seems that the planners are stacking things against you. But in most cases discussion and common sense do eventually prevail.
However the Viability Test is as previously stated ie the profit generated by the Holding/Agri Unit. It does not take into account what you have or what other income you have coming in.
This is because you are wanting to live on agricultural land therefore the land should support what you need and support your planned accomodation.
Phill
#15
Posted 06 May 2010 - 10:17
treebloke
-
- Book Owners
-
- 59 posts
Newbie
Derek,
However the Viability Test is as previously stated ie the profit generated by the Holding/Agri Unit. It does not take into account what you have or what other income you have coming in.
Phill
How would this relate to work done off site such as hedge laying, fencing, hanging gates, tree/hedge planting. I am sure I read in the book it's ok to do this as part of your activities.
#16
Posted 06 May 2010 - 12:36
Cornish Gems
-
- Book Owners
-
- 1,597 posts
Lord and Lady of the Manor
- LocationCornwall (formerly Devon)
The Finacial test is to prove the viability of the holding, you are asking for permission to live on the land in a permanant building. You have to prove that the holding is viable, not that you can have an income. From your holding you will produce products that you can sell at a farmers market or at the farm gate or produce products that can be used by others or yourself.
However if you do contract or selfemployed work not directly related to the holding this does not count towards the holdings viability.
The permanant dwelling that you get planning permission for will come with an agricultual tie, meaning that if you decide to sell the dwelling will continue to have this tie and the person buying will have to work in agriculture, so you see it is down to the viability of the holding.
Other work, job, penisions, income from shares etc does not count.
This is clearly explained in this thread and else where by Dave and others.
Phill
However if you do contract or selfemployed work not directly related to the holding this does not count towards the holdings viability.
The permanant dwelling that you get planning permission for will come with an agricultual tie, meaning that if you decide to sell the dwelling will continue to have this tie and the person buying will have to work in agriculture, so you see it is down to the viability of the holding.
Other work, job, penisions, income from shares etc does not count.
This is clearly explained in this thread and else where by Dave and others.
Phill
#17
Posted 06 May 2010 - 17:26
admin
-
- Administrators
-
- 638 posts
Littlest Hobo
Hi
Perhaps i should clarify the point of working off site, Income from working away from your land can be used toward your total income but it is a matter of scale. if a proportion of your earnings were derived in this way say no more than say 20% then this would be permissable so long as the work you were carrying out was agricultural.
Regards Dave
Perhaps i should clarify the point of working off site, Income from working away from your land can be used toward your total income but it is a matter of scale. if a proportion of your earnings were derived in this way say no more than say 20% then this would be permissable so long as the work you were carrying out was agricultural.
Regards Dave
#18
Posted 06 May 2010 - 18:44
PumpkinEater
-
- Book Owners
-
- 38 posts
Newbie
- LocationScotland
Hi - so how can it be said, 'It really does seem odd that farmers can have part time jobs because they cannot earn sufficient money from their farms but you as a potential smallholder cannot.'? This is a sentence that I believe is going to be included in updates in the book.
Every time I think I know where I am going and what I am going to do, I get hit sideways. Quite honestly, I think that having read the books and some threads, I am going to go all out and make sure that it is the land I am buying that is going to provide me with the income necessary to apply for full planning permission for a permanent dwelling. With the way things are going, I am not prepared to risk losing my right to live on my land permanently just because in some way I have not satisfied the planners' guidelines.
Rita
Every time I think I know where I am going and what I am going to do, I get hit sideways. Quite honestly, I think that having read the books and some threads, I am going to go all out and make sure that it is the land I am buying that is going to provide me with the income necessary to apply for full planning permission for a permanent dwelling. With the way things are going, I am not prepared to risk losing my right to live on my land permanently just because in some way I have not satisfied the planners' guidelines.
Rita
#19
Posted 06 May 2010 - 20:13
admin
-
- Administrators
-
- 638 posts
Littlest Hobo
Hi
In the book i state that farmers can have part time jobs and smallholders can't, but I was not asked this. I was asked if income derived from work away from the land counted toward the total earnings for the holding and the answer is yes. But only if it is agricultural work and your employment status is self employed.A farmer can get a job in tesco's where as if you did this, the your wages would not count towards the total income from the holding.
Regards Dave
In the book i state that farmers can have part time jobs and smallholders can't, but I was not asked this. I was asked if income derived from work away from the land counted toward the total earnings for the holding and the answer is yes. But only if it is agricultural work and your employment status is self employed.A farmer can get a job in tesco's where as if you did this, the your wages would not count towards the total income from the holding.
Regards Dave
#20
Posted 06 May 2010 - 21:56
PumpkinEater
-
- Book Owners
-
- 38 posts
Newbie
- LocationScotland
I am still confused.
On 29/4/10 it was stated, 'You will need to prove that the holding is viable.....The total income from the holding is the figure you will be putting in from all of the enterprises, not just the main animal business.'
On 22/3/10, 'The income that is taken into consideration is from the holding regardless if there is one or more working on it.'
Then, ' Posted 01 February 2010 - 01:21 AM
Hi, I think that the planners would only be interested in what the income from the smallholding was. You could have a married couple where the husband worked full time on the farm and the wife, the main earner, helped at weekends. The fact that her salary was greater than the income from the farm should have no significance. But then what do I know.'
and at the same day, 2:40pm, 'The financial test is based purely on the smallholding in question and does not consider any other aspect of the applicants other incomes or financial means.'
Dave/Steve - you may be right and perhaps you have recently found some new planning permissions that support this idea of working as a self-employed person doing 'agricultural/horticultural work' to produce 20% of the necessary 'income' from the holding .
With my previous experience of planners in England I am not prepared to take the risk here in Scotland. I stand by what I said. I will follow the guidelines of THE book and use what I have learnt from threads on this forum and hopefully will make my dream come true. With many, many thanks for showing me the way. Rita
On 29/4/10 it was stated, 'You will need to prove that the holding is viable.....The total income from the holding is the figure you will be putting in from all of the enterprises, not just the main animal business.'
On 22/3/10, 'The income that is taken into consideration is from the holding regardless if there is one or more working on it.'
Then, ' Posted 01 February 2010 - 01:21 AM
Hi, I think that the planners would only be interested in what the income from the smallholding was. You could have a married couple where the husband worked full time on the farm and the wife, the main earner, helped at weekends. The fact that her salary was greater than the income from the farm should have no significance. But then what do I know.'
and at the same day, 2:40pm, 'The financial test is based purely on the smallholding in question and does not consider any other aspect of the applicants other incomes or financial means.'
Dave/Steve - you may be right and perhaps you have recently found some new planning permissions that support this idea of working as a self-employed person doing 'agricultural/horticultural work' to produce 20% of the necessary 'income' from the holding .
With my previous experience of planners in England I am not prepared to take the risk here in Scotland. I stand by what I said. I will follow the guidelines of THE book and use what I have learnt from threads on this forum and hopefully will make my dream come true. With many, many thanks for showing me the way. Rita
