17 replies to this topic

[Saleh]

I've been looking at land for the past few months, I'm looking at around 25 acres in the South East.

I have a decent idea of the various classifications and am ideally aiming for Arable grade 3a land. However, this is proving hard to find and am thinking I'm going to have to settle for pasture land which seems relatively more plentiful.

Is it possible to have land professionally (or otherwise) appraised to evaluate what can be done with it, or rather what can't be done with it. My aim is a couple of polytunnels for year-round veg aimed at the niche city farmers markets ie high value salad leaves. The remainder will be for livestock. However, it would be good to be able to, at some point in the future to be able to grow crops on the land.

In the polytunnels I'm hoping I'll be able to improve land quality'fertility substantially though deep mulching (straw bales), manure (chickens), worms (the rotting mulching will increase worms). So am I correct in thinking that land quality is not so much of a major issue except drainage which will need correction?

And how much does it cost to have land appraised and where can I find someone competent enough to do this well?

Thanks

Saleh

Ps I'm doing this on a very tight budget, all my savings will go into buying the land leaving me with no capital except creativity and desperation!

[helend]

Hi Saleh, I hope I can help you as my background is in Horticulture, although it's over 10 years since I was in Uni, so I'll dust off the grey matter.

One part of the course I did, in fact it was the first module of the first year, was soil science. Your soil is the starting point and the key to your success or lack of so you are right to be choosy.

Pasture land is ok, it should be fertile from the animals that have been there, although this can compact it so you'd need to plough.

Have you considered venturing toward East Anglia? Anywhere from Essex and Suffolk up to Lincolnshire is traditional crop growing country. It's flat, well cultivated and generally fertile, although a bit dry for my liking over there, but you can deal with that on your scale. We were lucky enough to get a field trip there, I remember standing in a vast field of broccoli LOL and I was even thinking of moving there myself until recently.

The point is there is more land available that is perfectly suited to your plans, and it will be more affordable - people are starting to think the changes the government have suggested re planning will open up green belt land for development, and the south east is where it's going to be so any parcels are being snapped up for stupid money and will likely price you out if your budget is tight.

From East Anglia you are still accessible to London if that's your chosen city, I see you live there now, or any of the other large towns and cities in the region.

When you find your ideal land you'll need to engage the services of an agricultural consultancy of some sort, they will be able to provide the service you are looking for, I don't know how much for but it won't be cheap. But there is a lot you can check yourself with some very basic soil sampling kits costing a few quid and a good pair of eyes cast over the land.

The presence of certain species on uncultivated land indicates the ground conditions. Some plants indicate acid or alkali soils, and so on. So for example my field is full of rushes and has standing water in divots where I've walked through the mud. I have heavy clay soil over granite rocks and am at the bottom of a mountain so it's no surprise and it's been a devil of a job making it acceptable for growing!

I presume none of this is news to you, you don't say what experience or qualifications you have, so before you go blowing a fortune on lab samples and consultancy fees, do the basics yourself and rule a site in or out early on.

You are right in saying that any deficiencies picked up by more sophisticated analysis can be corrected. Intensively farmed land will be deficient in many trace elements and minerals, specific to the crop grown, and will almost certainly need the addition of humus to breathe some life into the soil again.

This can be by mulching as you say, although make sure you use straw bales AND poultry manure together as the straw breaking down will actually take nitrogen out of the soil, whereas the nitrogen in the manure will serve as an accelerator to the composting. This is a slow process, even in a warm polytunnel, have you considered green manures? Or community compost? I get that by the lorry load! Eventually you will have the manure from your own livestock to use for free, that's ideal, and you can even keep chickens in the polytunnel, they keep it frost free from their body warmth, just keep beaks away from the plastic!

The one thing I would point out is that horticultural crops on any scale don't make much money, even retail and it's not worth selecting your land for the sake of a couple of polytunnels, and I wouldn't consider field crops at all on a 25 acre site unless you're growing feed for your animals to save on purchasing them.

It's very labour intensive and machinery to reduce labour is very expensive and specialised so you can't change from growing brussels to growing turnips.

Horticultural crops esp are highly perishable and if you can't sell to your intended source you can lose all your expected income to the compost heap or pigs. If you ever go large scale, you'll be exposed to even more risk - if a supermarket changes it's mind about taking all 25 acres of cabbages that you've just finished harvesting you're screwed. You can sell them at a massively reduced price wholesale and hope to cover your costs. It is not easy, or worth it, and the exact reason I left that side of horticulture well alone. But the same thing can happen on a small scale.

I really admire your sentiment but this process is about being practical. Growing horticultural crops is back breaking, low paid, low profit work. It will take all your time up, but arguably won't meet the need for SMDs, and diverts you from your livestock which will be more profitable. You can make money by adding value to your crops by processing them further, so turn basil into pesto or sell herbs in pots - they keep longer and if you return from market with any of these unsold they can be taken out again next time. The same can't be said of a lettuce or bag of rocket.

If you need any more advice please let me know, I'd be glad to help. There are ways you can make this work but you need a bit of a rethink. Put a business plan together and it will give you a chance to really research all your ideas. I did it and got a massive reality check that changed my focus completely!

HD

[che]

Hi HD

The only part of this post i would disagree on is that you will need a Planning Consultant. Whilst some on the forum would lack the confidence to go it alone others like yourself are more than capable of putting together an application. If more followed your example and scoured the old posts they would soon be in a position to hold their own with the planners. For A Consultant to take a case and see it through to appeal will give you little or no change out of £20000. I was quoted £125 ph + VAT and 80p per mile. Individuals will always devote more time to the case than a consultant would.
You already seem to have them backing off and I for one would not wish to be in there position. "Go get em"

[Cornish Gems]

Che, we think you have misread the post HD did not mention Planning Consultant, she actually said Agricultural Consultant so as to guide Saleh in the right direction regarding his land requirements.

But agree with sentiments re planning consultants.

CG

[helend]

Thanks Che, and GRRRRRRRRRRR to the planners!

[Saleh]

Thanks for the great replies

Have you considered venturing toward East Anglia? Anywhere from Essex and Suffolk up to Lincolnshire is traditional crop growing country. It's flat, well cultivated and generally fertile

The point is there is more land available that is perfectly suited to your plans, and it will be more affordable.

Thanks helend, that is indeed very useful to know. I've selected South East, specifically Kent/Surrey due to friends being in the region. But the land is ridiculously expensive so may will need to look further North.Thanks for the useful pointer there.

But there is a lot you can check yourself with some very basic soil sampling kits costing a few quid and a good pair of eyes cast over the land.

The presence of certain species on uncultivated land indicates the ground conditions. Some plants indicate acid or alkali soils, and so on.

I'll do that with the soil test kit, that's a good reminder! I'm seeing Land next week so will take a test kit with me and also take photos of plants growing so I can later identify what they are.

... have you considered green manures? Or community compost?

Yes, I'm planning on doing green manures too. How much is community compost by the truckload? Do you buy it off the local authority? That seems like a great idea. I'm planning on putting chickens in the polytunnels over winter (google: hoop house chickens) to fertilise and break-down the straw.

The one thing I would point out is that horticultural crops on any scale don't make much money, even retail and it's not worth selecting your land for the sake of a couple of polytunnels, and I wouldn't consider field crops at all on a 25 acre site unless you're growing feed for your animals to save on purchasing them.

It's very labour intensive and machinery to reduce labour is very expensive and specialised so you can't change from growing brussels to growing turnips.

Helend, you're a very useful source of exceptionally valuable information. That's changed my expectations of the Land so it means I can also consider land on a slope.I will focus on livestock and hope to set-up a luxury small 'camping hut' campsite in the future.

You can make money by adding value to your crops by processing them further, so turn basil into pesto or sell herbs in pots - they keep longer and if you return from market with any of these unsold they can be taken out again next time. The same can't be said of a lettuce or bag of rocket.

Yes, herbs are a great idea. I have lavender on my list of herbs, & imagine I'll be growing tons of it. There's a lavender project I've seen in London which extracts essential oils from the lavender and then creates toiletries from it, google: Carshalton Lavender.

If you need any more advice please let me know, I'd be glad to help. There are ways you can make this work but you need a bit of a rethink. Put a business plan together and it will give you a chance to really research all your ideas. I did it and got a massive reality check that changed my focus completely!
HD

The business plan is next on my list, I have so many documents and scattered notes from research over the last year. I need to put it together in one plan and then do some figures.

Thanks helend, very very useful advice

[Saleh]

Just to add I have no qualifications in Horticulture, only some very recent experience growing food with a company that supplies the local farmers market (high value salaad leaves), and also keeping chickens in my (city) garden. I've had a long term vision for a niche small but high end camp site, but I think this will have to wait 'till the agricultural business is established.

I also have product branding and marketing experience so will most certainly be exploring adding value to farm products and selling them under a brand.

Incidentally has anyone here paid for an agricultural consultant / surveyor to do a land report

[helend]

Hi Saleh

First a top tip - get yourself some qualifications, they don't need to be degree level or anything, something distance learning maybe, or where an employer signs off your experience. It helps convince people you know what you're doing. eg bank manager - the first paragraph of my business plan was about me and my skills and experience. Your knowledge of marketing will be useful though.

Use the contacts you have made recently to get facts and figures on the salad business, it's hard, nay impossible, to find generic info on these types of enterprises.

I'll say it again, beware of enterprises requiring specialist equipment - Harvesting lavender by hand is labour intensive, and machinery is non cost effective. Extracting essential oil from lavender on a decent scale needs distillation equipment and associated gubbins; will the place in London take your lavender and process it for you?

I make cosmetics/toiletries and remedies from the plants I grow but on a small scale and it's pointless me going beyond that, otherwise I can't manage to retail what I make.

Also look up Norfolk Lavender - the fields are stunningly beautiful. It's not something I'd consider doing on this scale - but goes back to location, these mediterranean plants need the dry conditions found in the East.

Sell the plants; they are quick from seed or they root easily from cuttings and you get loads of cuttings from one plant, it's easy to multiply up from one season to the next very cheaply. I grew enough box cuttings in two years from a few plants to do a whole knot garden!

You need to stop thinking of doing anything large scale on the horticultural side, you haven't got time to tend the land yourself, or the justification or funds to mechanise. Even with an army of volunteers, the amount of produce you end up with would have to go to wholesalers, and you get little return on that. Think retail every time. That's how we get the best margins and make profit where large scale farmers cannot.

Farmers markets are good but what about a box scheme? Either your own or supply an existing one. Try restaurants and hotels at the top end and grow/rear what they want. They love it in London, although it can be quite competitive, so you need somewhere that will work with seasonal produce and will change their menu if you have something special to harvest that week. Mike Robinson's gastropub in Berkshire springs to mind.

Community compost - our lot does two grades, the coarse stuff is £10/tonne I think, used it to bulk out topsoil in raised beds. The finer stuff more like £18-25/tonne - I can't quite remember, and I've never bought it in bulk. However I ordered a lorry load of the rough compost through a topsoil supplier we'd used and had 8-9 tonnes delivered, the max capacity by volume of a 10 tonne lorry. My haulier chappie got loaded with the good stuff by mistake and was only charged for the rough stuff. He saw them do it but didn't say owt

Sorry, I don't know what an agri consultant might charge, but I can point you in the direction of someone I've spoken to if you need.

[greenmeadow]

We've looked at some land this week that seemed ideal from the agent's particulars but when we got on it it was waterlogged.

Can anyone help with the following questions:-

What are our drainage options and what do they cost?

Will it work or are some fields just impossible to drain?

There is some woodland which is also very wet - lots of rotten wood covered in lichen. Does woodland have different requirements/problems with drainage?

The land is fairly flat - will this make it more difficult?

The land is close to the limit of our budget so if drainage will be too expensive/problematic or not guaranteed to work we may have to walk away - or put in a cheeky offer and see what happens.

Greenmeadow

[helend]

Greenmeadow - speaking as someone stuck on very poor waterlogged land I would say it is possible to rectify almost any soil but not always quickly and maybe not cost effective either! I've had an uphill battle to get fruit and veg growing in a small area and not rotting off in the cold and wet. The rest of the land is still too wet for my animals - I can't keep enough stock to be viable as I have to split the land and rotate often.

Whereabouts in the UK you are looking? You can research local geological conditions, and that will help you know the soil type and what it is capable of becoming even if it hasn't been looked after up til now. Look at what farmers are doing in the area, it's a good indicator of what you could do. But not always.

As I said above to Saleh the plants growing tell you what the soil is like - rushes and moss in wet soil is bad, it means it's always wet, but if it's just temporary waterlogging due to prolonged/heavy rain like we've had til recently, the grass should be fine underneath.

We have a steep sloping field that is wet all the way up, rushes everywhere! but that's because the soil is clay over granite boulders the size of sheep! There's no structure to the soil, if you can even call it soil, and I can't change that - I didn't have time to research our place before we bought it and we only saw it in summer!

For fields to drain well, some degree of slope is definitely desirable! You will need to dig ditches if there aren't any and possibly lay land drains or mole plough (it's exactly like it sounds!) if the land is still wet. It's like plumbing a house, things need to be linked up to carry water away, so the land drains or the channels created by mole ploughing must empty into the ditches, which need to empty somewhere else and gravity is essential to keep that process ticking over. You must watch where your surface water drains to as well, don't flood a neighbour!

Proper land drains ain't cheap, digging ditches is just a mini digger for a day or two, mole ploughing - I don't know, I can't find anyone round here that does it - apparently they're too tight and would rather leave the land wet. No surprise there commercial farmer not looking after the land unless government pays them to!

Are there any water courses on the land or on boundaries that you could use to take excess water away if you did any of the above?

I find it hard to understand why woodland would be so wet, mature trees should be taking up a lot of water, deciduous ones especially, the area under trees is notoriously difficult for gardeners to deal with because it's usually dry shade and full of roots.

We've got a wet 'woodland' area, not helped by the last occupants dumping horse manure there for years, it's like a swamp. But the willow I put there grew 8ft in a season!!!

Also bear in mind for a lot of the UK this has been the wettest summer for ages - I don't think we had a summer here in Wales, it's been raining so much for so long that the ground gets saturated and it looks worse this time of year, so a good time to be assessing land to purchase. Our own land has never been so bad, hence I am taking measures to put it right before we put it on the market. And I've been land-looking recently just so I can see it at it's worst.

If animals have been on pasture for a long time they compact it, as does machinery - what is/was the land used for? Sometimes just ploughing and reseeding pasture can help alleviate compaction.

I've even taken a spade with me and asked to dig a little on recent viewings - they didn't mind - but it means you can see the soil structure. The place I'm going ahead with had a few molehills in the lowest lying bit, so I picked up some of the spoil and it looked pretty good, esp as I want to grow some veg again. It was also pretty wet in places but the owner admits they've done no maintenance for years - they showed me an old map showing the location of clay pipe drains underneath. These get silted up over time esp where they empty into ditches, and get blocked, but this is relatively simples to sort out.

I hope that helps you understand your options a bit better - the perfect piece of land probably doesn't exist so you need to know if you can make this one work.

Sorry I can't be more definitive, but I got some of this info from Seymour's book, and the rest from experience. A good (organic) gardening book will explain about soil and how important it is.

All the best in your search
HD

[Saleh]

Hi Saleh

First a top tip - get yourself some qualifications … where an employer signs off your experience. It helps convince people you know what you're doing. eg bank manager

I’ve been thinking of this recently, looked around for agricultural colleges but couldn’t find anything suitable. Have been looking into farms to do an internship as well, but I’m finding something suitable hard to find.

I’ll get the current place I’m volunteering to sign off my experience (great idea), and thanks for the tip getting facts & figures, I’ve been asking loads of questions and it seems that whilst Salad leaves are lucrative for the organic box schemes it is unfortunately heavily dependent on local volunteers to harvest, and as you say the profits are indeed low. The company is heavily subsidised, It markets itself as a pioneering urban agriculture social enterprise, so gets loads of funding, and also loyal box-scheme customers/volunteers. It’s got me thinking about creating a separate community interest company (CIC) and marketing the heritage livelihood aspect of the business.(and it’s products) and looking into funding possibilities for farming projects from Trusts.

I’ve also very recently applied to a city farm to volunteer, in return they are certified to offer diplomas in animal husbandry. They keep dairy cows, goats, chickens, pheasants and bee’s .

I'll say it again, beware of enterprises requiring specialist equipment - Harvesting lavender by hand is labour intensive, and machinery is non cost effective. Extracting essential oil from lavender on a decent scale needs distillation equipment and associated gubbins; will the place in London take your lavender and process it for you?

I hadn’t thought this one through yet, my first consideration was land aesthetics, as a means to draw attention (& thus sales) to the farm. The lavender would also benefit the honey bees. The idea to harvest and distil essential oil, has admittedly not been researched, and I can see that expensive specialised machinery will not work on such a small acreage and a untested market. Besides, I do want to keep free of machinery as much as possible. The nursery idea is a great one, and easier to implement. Last year I seeded many vegetables & herbs in pots and had thought about the market for them in cities, and considering they don’t have a short shelf life it is a good side business – I need to do more research and experimentation.

My plan has been small-scale and focus on retail & direct marketing; but not having the land in front of me it is easy to (mentally) upscale production! Completely unrealistic, I know. This is where I imagine the business plan will be a grounding exercise! Thanks for the Norfolk Lavender pointer, I’ve bookmarked the site and will scour it for ideas, great site. Would love to see pictures of your knot garden, it's a great use of land and time.Pleasure gardens first and foremost

…. What about a box scheme? Either your own or supply an existing one. Try restaurants and hotels at the top end and grow/rear what they want.

Box scheme is a great idea, I’m hoping the contacts I’m currently making in London would help me market to the box schemes. The advantage of this is that customers can build a very real relationship with the farms they buy produce off, thus supporting a way of life, and the customer gets production transparency which all leads to trust.

Community compost - our lot does two grades, the coarse stuff is £10/tonne I think, used it to bulk out topsoil in raised beds. The finer stuff more like £18-25/tonne

That seems very good value, particularly if used in polytunnels. I’ll look around for this. I was told by the Farmers market people I currently volunteer for that the community compost won’t pass the Soil Association test for Organic certification, it just takes a couple of batteries to be mixed in with the compost for one to fail the test. But this doesn't matter to me, it's only a side note.

Thanks helend, you’re a very valuable resource in this community!

[Cornish Gems]

We have a polytunnel which is being built in two stages. The first one meant we had a 30' polytunnel for use last year and the second means that the last 70' will be available this Easter.

We are very glad that we did not use the ground soil in the polytunnel. Bearing in mind, that we did not fancy bending down too much, we used lots of pallets to raise the working area. We made a couple of raised beds and also used lots of 'growbags' on top of the pallets. These can be very easily made if one fills up plastic animal food sacks with home-made compost and seals them up and then uses them like one does the ones one buys at garden centres, etc. Another thing we did was collect the large black flower buckets from supermarkets, drill holes in the bottom and fill them with our compost for tomato plants.

Pathways between the rows of pallets have been sanded over so as to prevent them getting 'soggy'.
We did this when we realised for the first time that that polytunnels create a lot of condensation.

[Saleh]

The land I've been exceptionally keen on, is alas AONB land. This is terrible news, as it was the right acreage, perfect location for me (friends nearby) and most importantly the price was good. I'm still going to see the land and I'll put in an offer. Land is hard to find around here so I'm loath to pass it up.

I take it ANOB land is a real uphill struggle with the planners?

We are very glad that we did not use the ground soil in the polytunnel.... we used lots of pallets to raise the working area. We made a couple of raised beds and also used lots of 'growbags' on top of the pallets. These can be very easily made if one fills up plastic animal food sacks with home-made compost and seals them up and then uses them like one does the ones one buys at garden centres, etc.

Thats a great idea - were the wood pallets in contact with the any of the soil and if so did you treat them? I'm trying to build chicken coops with pallets, its a great free resource.

Another thing we did was collect the large black flower buckets from supermarkets, drill holes in the bottom and fill them with our compost for tomato plants.

My local supermarket sells the flower buckets, 10 for £1, still great value. Great idea using them for tomatoes.

[surreydodger]

If at all possible, avoid AONB or any other land designated at such a high level. There are some designations that sound problematic but on the whole, so long as what one is doing, can be overcome. The first one that springs to mind in that camp is AGLV, area of greater landscape value. Designations such as that are just planners gone mad as they carry little planning protection although they do have a minor consideration, but hey, they have to waste the taxpayers money somehow.

It is not absolutely impossible to create your own working farm within an AONB but it is a much taller challenge. Type into Google 'Planning Decision agricultural AONB' and see what comes up. There's a been a few success' worth studying,,, and a lot more failures which are worth much closer study!

[Saleh]

If at all possible, avoid AONB or any other land designated at such a high level. There are some designations that sound problematic but on the whole, so long as what one is doing, can be overcome. The first one that springs to mind in that camp is AGLV, area of greater landscape value. Designations such as that are just planners gone mad as they carry little planning protection although they do have a minor consideration, but hey, they have to waste the taxpayers money somehow.

It is not absolutely impossible to create your own working farm within an AONB but it is a much taller challenge. Type into Google 'Planning Decision agricultural AONB' and see what comes up. There's a been a few success' worth studying,,, and a lot more failures which are worth much closer study!

Thanks SD,

The land is strategically located and ticks pretty much all the boxes - also it's on a south facing slope with far reaching woodland views which means (future) luxury yurt/cabin site potential.

The main question I have is where/when will the difficulty present itself with ANOB land - as long as I can quickly get the PD for the barn and a mobile home on there I'm willing to dig my heels in for the long struggle.

However, if I'm going to face a struggle just placing a mobile home on the land and moving onto it then maybe it's not worth it. As I'll need to do the latter soon as the house will be sold shortly and I'm itching to get livestock and start farming/learning.

Thanks

S

[surreydodger]

It's very difficult to advise on how possible it is to get permitted development for agricultural buildings in protected areas.

The regulations are drawn in such a way that means PD rights apply in AONB's, etc., in the same way as they would in an undesignated area. After all, the protected area is most likely to look how it does because of farming and that landscape would have looked totally different pre 1939, after which time farming practice altered dramatically. Thus we are calling things such as AONB's on landscapes that have formed over the last 50-70 years. They are not truly historic!

Still, if you go to your local planners, backed by a plethora of self styled and appointed protection agencies, they will tell you how we must preserve such views for future generations (,, who have not been born yet and how the hell do we know what they will want????). So, you will face an uphill struggle fighting against people who have some kind of eutopian view based on mythical facts,, and then they all shop at Tesco's!!

I would admire you for taking on the above establishment but unless you are up for a real fight with more of a chance of loosing then winning, then find an unprotected bit of land. The odds are that they will refuse your PD rights on siting grounds.

[Saleh]

It's very difficult to advise on how possible it is to get permitted development for agricultural buildings in protected areas.

The regulations are drawn in such a way that means PD rights apply in AONB's, etc., in the same way as they would in an undesignated area. After all, the protected area is most likely to look how it does because of farming and that landscape would have looked totally different pre 1939, after which time farming practice altered dramatically. Thus we are calling things such as AONB's on landscapes that have formed over the last 50-70 years. They are not truly historic!

Still, if you go to your local planners, backed by a plethora of self styled and appointed protection agencies, they will tell you how we must preserve such views for future generations (,, who have not been born yet and how the hell do we know what they will want????). So, you will face an uphill struggle fighting against people who have some kind of eutopian view based on mythical facts,, and then they all shop at Tesco's!!

I would admire you for taking on the above establishment but unless you are up for a real fight with more of a chance of loosing then winning, then find an unprotected bit of land. The odds are that they will refuse your PD rights on siting grounds.

Thanks SD, After much thinking I will forgo the ANOB land.

But that would be a fascinating (and also frustrating) argument to explore, ie returning the land to it's pre-1939 heritage, to it's historically traditional usage; which also happened to be ecologically enhancing, sustainable and aesthetically pleasing. Particularly considering that all buildings were made using locally sourced materials which created a living countryside, a living aesthetic which drew people onto the land.

The current legislation would look like they're trying to keep ANOB land free of the very general public they're protecting the land for Fantastic.

[surreydodger]

I appreciate some of my views and statements can sometimes be a bit subversive and be construed as either some old twit off his trolley or the new evangelist of land enlightenment. The idea of protecting the land is something I do support but I want to see it protected from the land grabbing, quick buck entrepreneur and green welly townie brigade whose motives are not to farm the land as it has been developed for. Sadly, the UK planning machine has not shown any adeptness in 64 years of how to tackle the genuine from the artificial and it remains as a body happy to see small farm houses with no ag tie, smashed down and replaced with millionaires palaces whilst in the same instance denying genuine agricultural applications.

P.S.,,, before anyone misconstrues things, I am certainly not an anti-townie !!