25 replies to this topic

[Wilk]

Hi,
I applied under Pd rights to erect a barn allmost two years ago, we were knocked back all for silly reasons and untruths. ( I would point out that we do have some small buildings on site in poor repair which I am working on. we do not live on the land ) Some time ago whilst carrying out some considerable planting works I moved my touring caravan onto site, we used it as mess tent, shelter etc. and we didnt take it away. Today i received a letter from the valuation officer, my caravan has been banded for council tax, ie notice of making a new entry on the valuation list.
Not sure how to approach this, should i move the van away and argue against paying this? or swap the tourer for a more substantial mobile, live in it and start the 3 year plan? ( I am still repairing buildings, i could stretch it out for another 3 years) The letter states that the local council have been notified.
Just want to use this as an opportunity if one exists.
I would appreciate your help with this one. Wilk.

[hobbitmeadow]

I would pay the council tax as once you have paid, they are saying you have a right to live there, as if it was not a lawful residence they are trying to get you to pay fees on an illegal structure. this could be a catch 22 in your favor.

[Cornish Gems]

Hi HobbitMeadow - we are sorry but we have to disagree with you. Somewhere on the forum there is an appeal which was lost because the Inspectorate said that the fact that council tax was being paid did not make any difference!

We would also question why council tax is being asked to be paid on a caravan which is not much more than an H&E requirement.

[che]

BEWARE by paying council tax you will be admitting you are living there and lay yourself open to enforcement action.

[helend]

Agree with CG and Che - Don't be scared off by this latest event. Your caravan is on site while you are working on the agricultural buildings on your agricultural land, to provide rest area and shelter, as per H&S requirements mentioned by CG.

Therefore the caravan is not permanent and it is not liable to council tax. Even if you were living in it, and you are already entitled to do that whilst repairing the buildings, you still wouldn't be liable for council tax. It's not a holiday home for crying out loud, why do the council waste the tax payers money like this?!?

So to answer the first part of your question, no don't move it and no don't pay any tax!

Wilk, when you say "starting a 3 year plan" do you mean the three years you can live in a temp agricultural dwelling? If so you DO need to apply for permission to do this. You could apply for this permission at any time, and it is not triggered by you moving on to the land, but have all your ducks in a row first - ie animals, business proposals etc. to show you are serious.

You could also move a bigger mobile home/static (as long as it complies with the rules for being temporary) or keep the existing one, and live on the land to continue repairs on the existing buildings. See pg 48.

Beware of confusing the various elements and stages of "the plan", I've re-read parts of the book a couple more times since joining the forum to help crystallise it in my mind.

Finally, and this may negate most of the above, what were the reasons for not gaining PD for the barn two years ago? I have been assuming you have at least 5ha of land, is that right?

Depending on those reasons and now armed with the book and this forum, perhaps you should consider giving 28 days notice again. You will be better equipped to answer objections this time.

Don't forget if you have 5ha of land, and PD rights have not been reduced or removed, you're not asking permission from the council to build your barn, you don't need it, that's what PD means. You are merely advising them of your intention and giving them an opportunity to comment on your plans. They can influence the siting, appearance and design of it blah blah blah as per pg 43 of the book but that's it, they've still got to get a decision to you within 8 weeks.

See also pg 46 where they might say the barn isn't required for your proposed enterprise - it doesn't have to be linked to any enterprise it's linked to the land!

One thing I haven't quite sussed yet is at what stage you would start paying council tax - I would imagine it's when you are given permission for the 3 yr temp dwelling and are officially living on the land. I recall reading posts about paying for it without waiting to be asked otherwise you get a big bill dropped in your newly installed post box at the gate.

Just for a laugh, what did they tell you your council tax band/bill would be? They are muppets, honestly!

[surreydodger]

If you reside in a dwelling, fixed or not, you can become liable for council tax. However, you do have to be living their permanently or the structure has to have legal status as a full time residence.

As has been seen in a number of planning decisions by the Inspectorate and as said above, paying council tax does not create any planning right to live there. The two bodies (Planning and Council Tax) are completely seperate.

The only time there is any use to the officialdom of paying Council Tax is that it may be entered as evidence to help (though not prove in its singularity) show the period of residency when looking to prove one is beyond the the limits in a four or ten year time expiry case.

[helend]

Morning SD!

So does the caravan being used to live on site during building works qualify as a dwelling?

If not, is it right to say the minute you get temp ag permission it becomes a dwelling and that same caravan is thenliable for council tax from then on?

[surreydodger]

Your place of residence become liable to Council Tax, so yes, even your temporary dwelling becomes liable. What hasn't been fully determined by those of us here yet, is when you become liable. There was some talk that you could be on site for upto 11 months before you became liable but I don't seem to remember anyone finding corroborative proof to that end.

[hobbitmeadow]

I apologize for getting it wrong I did not see the earlier post on CT

[KChally]

If your caravan/mobilehome/log cabin is your main residence then you will have to pay council tax. We had to complete a planning contravention notice as we were living in the mobile home, technically illegally. One of the questions was " When did the change of use of the land from agriculture to a mixed use for agriculture and the stationing of a residential caravan/mobile home occur?. So we told them the date we officially moved in for residential purposes.

About 18 months to 2 years later we received council tax BILLS which started from the date we gave the planners that we had filled in on the form. We tried to get out of it but it was no use. We ended up with a very large bill to pay.

So if it is your main residence, dont leave things hoping they will go away, they wont, it will catch up with you in the end.

KChally

[helend]

KC - Did you manage to delay paying the bill or spread it out? I can believe they would try it on and insist you pay it immediately in full, but bearing in mind you told them 2 years earlier that you were living there and it took them all that time to sort themselves out, you shouldn't then have to pay up all at once - esp since they let you spread your normal annual bill over 10 months.

I think I will wait for them to contact us when our time comes, but have a slush fund we pay into each month from the point we move in, to cover the bill that inevitably arrives!

What tax band is a caravan/mobile home? Surely it's the lowest one!

[Wilk]

Hi Helend,
Just to answer a few points, we have 5.1 hectares, just enough, the valuers are quoting tax band A at us, but still about £1100 per year.
We set out to purchase the land, apply for ad for a barn, move a mobile on site and live in it, they refused the AD on four counts, AONB, lies it is not, barn would be seen from a public footpath, it would not and like it would matter anyway. the tracks to the barn would be seen and contravene god knows what?, and the barn was not necessary to the buisness as we were hobby farming and asked us to produce 3 years audited accounts. I spoke to them many times but couldnt get them to meet me on site, they turned up unanounced twice when we were away and gathered evidence to justify their case. They said we would need to apply for ful pp and hinted that the demolition of our other 3 dilapidated buildings would be required as a condition. I complained but with no avail eventually i reported them to the ombudsman as they had not followed their complaints proceedure correctly but after another 6 months wait he threw it out as he could see no benefit in an outcome for either party. We lost our deposit on the mobile as things fell apart.
since then we have continued working the land which is very difficult as we live 20 miles away. We planted 2 acres of vines last spring with more to follow. and have repaired two of our three buildings. We havnt been able to take on the livestock that we intended and have not put all the ducks in a row just yet but we are working on it.

Wilk.

[littleacorn]

Hi we have had experience of this too this week - we have had a card left for us by someone from the council tax office who visited our land before we arrived that morning asking us to let the Revenues section know the details of the occupants. We have had a static on the land since November but we have not stayed there yet - although our move is imminent. I rang the lady who left the card and explained that there is no one living in the caravan at the moment, it is being used for making cuppas whilst we are working on our track (track, barn and polytunnel 28 day notification granted in September) and I will update them when that changes. Her reply was - no problem it has been registered as a dwelling and it will be classed as empty for upto 6 months.

One of my worries regarding moving onto our land in the F2F way was the lack of traceability with regard to future finance applications etc with not being on any electoral roll - so I am hoping this is a positive sign that we will be classed as legal.

[helend]

Hi Wilk

Sorry to hear the lpa are playing silly buggers. Looks like your council tax rates are even more extortionate than ours, but hey at least we're starting to get our money's worth.

As has been said in many other posts, when they bombard you with all this sh*t you need to address one point at a time. So just to re-iterate:

1. You need to sort out the AONB bit one way or the other as this could be used over and over again and it removes PD rights, which changes everything and isn't within the scope of the plan. Nothing I've put below counts if it turns out you don't have PD rights.

2. Planners can have a say over the siting/appearance of the barn, not it's existence. Ask them where they would like to see it go and what colour steel they want it clad in. See pg 43 about existing buildings, site your new barn nearby.

3. Have a look on here for posts to do with access tracks, they are allowed under PD although I recall the area of the track is included in the overall 465 sq m allowed. I haven't really been absorbing the info on this properly as it isn't relevant to my situation, sorry.

4. The barn is nothing to do with the needs of the business, it is allowed by virtue of the fact that it is an agricultural building going on agricultural land - end of! That's in the book pg47 Clarke v Secretary of State.

You don't need to supply 3 years accounts until you are applying for your permanent dwelling, which is a little way off yet!

There is also a lot of info here about POs and access to site. Don't let them just help themselves, I think they can go onto site for enforcement action but not at this stage so make sure they haven't been trespassing. More reason to get yourself on site too.

You don't need to apply for PP and therefore they can't impose conditions to demolish old buildings.

Sadly it sounds like they are the ones confusing the different aspects and relevant rules and regs, it's up to you to put them straight.

If you are not living in the caravan make sure the banding office is aware of this, and do not let them tell you the same as they did to Little Acorn. You aren't liable to pay it until you live there.

If it were me and I'd been fed all this misinformation I would be seeking compensation for loss of the deposit, loss of earnings and anything else I could think of.

As I said at the start, it seems the key here is to prove you have PD rights ie you are not in AONB, start there, good luck!

[helend]

Little Acorn

the comment from the valuations office registering your caravan as a dwelling concerns me a little - you need to put it to them in writing that the caravan IS NOT used as a dwelling, (quote the legislation to back you up), they should not register it as such until you start living there, and rest assured they will be the first to know when you do. (You'll remember to tell them won't you!)

You are quite right about maintaining your presence on the electoral roll, that's a big factor in credit searches (used to work in a bank, funny, they liked horses too). Make sure you register the farm address correctly via the council, not Royal Mail.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but what does one do about proof of address in the form of utility bills if we are off grid, don't do credit cards etc etc it limits your options. Might be worth getting or hanging onto these things to assist before you drop off the edge of the earth.

It is important to maintain a good credit score if you know you'll be applying for a mortgage soon. Apply for or keep hold of a credit card or two, and starting with a zero balance (I wish!!!) , drop the credit limit to £100 say. Use the card(s) every month, just put a tank of fuel on it or something, then pay it off in full every month by direct debit so you never forget. This gives you a flawless history, you're a low risk because you haven't already got a lot of credit but you've managed what you do have perfectly.

We lived abroad for a number of years and needed a mortgage when we came back but we both kept bank accounts and credit cards etc going, even if they were at my Mum's UK address, so we were always traceable.

Hope that helps!

HD



Much as I hate the banks we hold accounts with, it makes a difference when we can say we've been customers of a bank for 20 and 30 years, so we haven't closed our old accounts, we just don't use them much.

[che]

If a caravan is registered as a dwelling it is liable to enforcement if there is no planning attached to it. The council are being underhanded be very careful if you do not get PP you will be required to remove it and reinstate the land.

[helend]

Che, this is something I hadn't realised, so if we're staying in a caravan on the land while building our barn, but the caravan happens to be your main residence, it becomes a dwelling, meaning they can start charging council tax, and then this opens the door to enforcement? Bugger!

What if I put my mum's address as the my residence and pay council tax at her address? Does that keep them off your case?

Is it correct that the enforcement process can be a lengthy one? If so is it worth letting them have a go, the one EO for the whole council, while you build up your business ready to apply for your temp dwelling, and pip them to the post?

We should all move to the same county and really screw them up! Where shall we all live?

[che]

Whilst you are living in it to do building and construction work it should not be liable, to have an alternative address obviously helps. the real problem in this case is the caravan is being used quite legally as incidental to the farming practice. If registered as a dwelling without PP it becomes llegal and open to enforcement. By accepting the residential description and paying council tax you are accepting illegal use of the caravan.

[Wilk]

Update.
Just to bring things up to date, following the letter from the valuation office, a council tax bill for £600 a few days later. I replied to both parties stating that the touring caravan was being used as an animal feed store and also a mess hut whilst repairs to buildings were being carried out on site.
the response from the valuations office is a standard form, proposal to alter the valuation list. under details- "the dwelling should be deleted from the valuation list " would seem to be the correct selection, however under the guidance booklet there is nothing listed that is appropriate under "circumstances"
The form asks for "reasons for beliving that the valuation list is inaccurate" but surely these were the two points raised in my original reply?
I have no doubt i shall hear from the council tax office seperately in due course.
Wilk.

[Romany]

Whilst you are living in it to do building and construction work it should not be liable, to have an alternative address obviously helps. the real problem in this case is the caravan is being used quite legally as incidental to the farming practice. If registered as a dwelling without PP it becomes llegal and open to enforcement. By accepting the residential description and paying council tax you are accepting illegal use of the caravan.

In other words, are you saying that when one is building a barn (or otherwise engaged in building works) one does NOT have to pay council tax? And that when the time comes, and the 3 year temp is granted, THEN council tax is payable??

I have been living in my static for some months now, whilst working on a building, but have not yet registered for council tax, so I need to be absolutely certain of this point before the council come knocking.

Does it matter how long it takes to do the building before the council expect CT to be paid?

Romany