13 replies to this topic

[Groundhog]

Would I be correct that you do not need a certain amount of animals/birds per acre to demonstrate  the functional test ?
10000 hens or 150 sheep etc Is there anything anywhere that says it must be a certain figure per acre? So If I can show the same return by keeping 12 sheep as keeping 150 would that not meet the critiria,ie optimizing size of acres available maximizing profitability etc

[Groundhog]

Is the sheep just because of the value of lamb/wool you recieve.Pedigree rams have a High value I appreciate a very high level of stockmanship and knowledge is required but obviously everyone has their own skills set

[Ty Unnos]

Hi Derek

The functional test reads like this:

"A functional test is necessary to establish functioning of the enterprise for one or more workers to be readily available at most times. Such a requirement might arise, for example, if workers are needed to be on hand day and night"

From what I have read most councils want to see evidence of the number of hours work the smallholding requires.

They then calculate the number of workers need to support the smallholding.

There has to be enough work for one full-time worker.

They also need to see evidence that a worker is required during unsociable hours such as to tend to animals giving birth at night.

Otherwise they will argue that you could live in a local village and work the smallholding like a 9-5 job (Madness!)

Sheep alone can fail the test as they have a finite lambing season and do not require 24 hour care outside this season.

Some other animals have a more unpredictable season so help make a case.  Other animals are more vulnerable to sudden illness or are very expensive like alpaca.

Security can be a consideration but cannot be justification on its own.

Dave's position seems to be that anyone generating sufficient profit to pass the viability / financial tests is inevitably going to be working enough hours with sufficient number of animals to go a long way to passing the functional test.

I don't have any reason to doubt his logic but think people need to be aware that the functional test is a separate test which they might fail if they had a sheep only (or similar) enterprise.

Hope this helps! 

[Groundhog]

Thanks for that so a high value number of sheep with high value offspring lambing evenly over the year would tick boxes ?Dont worry about the mechanics and stockmanship side of things just the principle Im after
Why do they seem to favour Alpacas apart from their value ,because I thought you can tell the exact day thay are going to calf,and am I correct in saying they only give birth in the morning up to midday Regards Derek

[Groundhog]

Thanks for that so a high value number of sheep with high value offspring lambing evenly over the year would tick boxes ?Dont worry about the mechanics and stockmanship side of things just the principle Im after
Why do they seem to favour Alpacas apart from their value ,because I thought you can tell the exact day thay are going to calf,and am I correct in saying they only give birth in the morning up to midday Regards Derek

Can any one clarify how and when Alpacas give birth.
Funny reading old posts oh how things change !!

[brocade]

Can any one clarify how and when Alpacas give birth.
Funny reading old posts oh how things change !!

Most alpacas do give birth in the morning, but you certainly can't guarantee it.

We have had one already born and dried off in the sun by the time they were checked on at 6 am.

We have also had one who I luckily discovered trying to give birth at about 10 pm - we would have lost this baby had we not been here.

Another problem is the big variation in gestation times, we have had everything from 10 months to over 13 months, so you wouldn't be able to just stay on site for a short period each year.

We now have about 10 years experience breeding alpacas, so I'd be happy for anyone to quote this to planners, or I would write you a letter to give them if they don't believe you. Anyone who would like more info on alpacas is welcome to contact me via this forum or our website www.willowmead-alpacas.co.uk

[Groundhog]

Most alpacas do give birth in the morning, but you certainly can't guarantee it.

We have had one already born and dried off in the sun by the time they were checked on at 6 am.

We have also had one who I luckily discovered trying to give birth at about 10 pm - we would have lost this baby had we not been here.

Another problem is the big variation in gestation times, we have had everything from 10 months to over 13 months, so you wouldn't be able to just stay on site for a short period each year.

We now have about 10 years experience breeding alpacas, so I'd be happy for anyone to quote this to planners, or I would write you a letter to give them if they don't believe you. Anyone who would like more info on alpacas is welcome to contact me via this forum or our website www.willowmead-alpacas.co.uk

Thanks for that,I had a great conversation with a breeder of a herd in excess of 700 today at a show whilst exibiting ,I didnt realize the 8 weeks variation as most agric animals have a fairly defined gestation period.When questioned about the VAT charged by some members which I have questioned he informed me that the Inland revenue insist on VAT being added as Alpacas' are not considered Agricultural animals which I think highlights an area that LPA's might pick up on Was also interested to learn about the fleece and the age and sex of the animals it is taken from.Didnt know the terminology of them physicaly giving birth ie calving,kidding etc he said birthing All new to me

[che]

Thanks for that,I had a great conversation with a breeder of a herd in excess of 700 today at a show whilst exibiting ,I didnt realize the 8 weeks variation as most agric animals have a fairly defined gestation period.When questioned about the VAT charged by some members which I have questioned he informed me that the Inland revenue insist on VAT being added as Alpacas' are not considered Agricultural animals which I think highlights an area that LPA's might pick up on Was also interested to learn about the fleece and the age and sex of the animals it is taken from.Didnt know the terminology of them physicaly giving birth ie calving,kidding etc he said birthing All new to me

iIf the LPA question agricultural use of these animals then you just need to change the application to Occupational Workers Dwelling treates exactly the same as AWD under PPS7

[Groundhog]

iIf the LPA question agricultural use of these animals then you just need to change the application to Occupational Workers Dwelling treates exactly the same as AWD under PPS7

Someone ought to write a book with all this info

[shepie]

Nearly finished it Groundhog, just keep giving me the info and i can get it printed

Shepie

[Piglet]

My comment on this subject of Functional test is that there are no parameters of what fulfills the functional need of a small holding and eventually it will come down to the personal view of the planner, their consultant or ultimately an inspector. In my experience, there is no rhyme or reason to it and even if you show you need one worker and you have animals with high value and an all year round breeding cycle, etc it will still be down to one person's decision - either that of the Planning Officer under delegated powers if they don't want you there or the decision of a planning Inspector who does not specifically have agricultural knowledge or experience.

[surreydodger]

I fully agree with you Piglet and which is why I believe the planning system, as is, to be so poor

[Groundhog]

Hi
To prove the functional need test you would need sufficient agricultural animals to make the minimum wage, sheep woud not count for functional need but in a diversity of animals would go toward the money generated and thus contribute towards the viability test. There is no hard and fast rule about the amount of animals that would be required to meet the functional need test other than you would need to meet the viability test. The planners have a yard stick as to how many animals would be required which is a theoretical number, this is why it is better to use the Field to Farm system to get on to the land they cannot argue with what you are doing, or the money you are really making. 

Think sheep can count for the functional need