18 replies to this topic

[treebloke]

Hello All, I know there have been lots of posts on services but I am finding it difficult getting my head around all of the info so would be very grateful if you could help to start me off.

I am thinking of getting a large caravan (not static) to live in as everything is on 12V leisure battery. I have been told it is easier to charge a leisure battery wth solar power (which is my prefered option) as it is smaller and both the battery and solar panel costs less to buy. So far I have thought of the following:

• lights on 12V from solar power
• fridge on separate solar power battery/system with option of linking to generator
• general heating from log fire with back boiler for heating water
• Cooking with gas
• generator for pc and other things like charging phone etc
• WC will be compost toilet with fan run by solar power (as I think they can be purchased with ther own solar panel)
• Grey water - not sure yet
• I will pay someone to wash my clothes

A large caravan would be for day to day stuff (general living) and I would have a smaller caravan next door to sleep in and for extra storage. If it is safe to get a log burner (this i need to check as I will be in a woodland) I will put this in the large caravan with connections to a radiator into the smaller caravan.

Does anyone have any advise or experience on any of the above?

Thanks in advance.

[Cornish Gems]

Two of our caravans have water 'tanks' which are heated by gas. Both of them are well and truly insulated/lagged and very efficient. There is ample hot water in a tank for a decent shower or even doing washing by hand. It also does not take long for the water to heat up. The only problem is the fact that occasionally the wind is in the wrong direction and so it can take some time to get the heater going!

One of the benefits of having a caravan instead of an old static is the fact that the old statics are not double-glazed and therefore can become very very cold during the winter nights. Our 'central heating' system is also run on gas, but one of the vans does not have a very efficient regulator so the van can very quickly become too hot!

We have a genni for charging the leisure batteries and also those of the laptops, phones and using other electrical equipment. The first genni was a petrol one but it did not have sufficient power to run, say, microwave and kettle at the same time, and so we have now splashed out on a 'silent running' diesel generator. We of course use red diesel for this genni but are a bit disappointed about the smell that sometimes wafts inside our van.

Don't forget that you can have an awning on your caravans and these can be very useful for getting out of dirty/wet clothing before heading for the shower! It will also help you to keep the caravan clean as you will have somewhere to leave your muddy wet wellies without them running the risk of filling up with rainwater!

[greenmeadow]

A lot of caravan fridges will run on gas as well as electricity.

[treebloke]

Hi Cornish Gems,

Do you mean you have a genni for charging two batteries, ie, a 12 volt caravan leisure battery and also 240v battery for phones, laptop, microwave etc?

Def a good idea to have an awning.

[Cornish Gems]

Treebloke

When running on 12v only you can use a 240v inverter - this turns the 12v leisure battery use in the caravan in to 240v - is ok for laptop and phone but does not run the TV. all you need is a 12v output socket in the caravan a car cig lighter is ideal. Will not run it all day but the genny runs for say 12hrs and then 12v only for the rest of the time.

Both our petrol and diesel generators have 12v and also then the option of 240v or 110v. We do not use the 110v as if we forget we are so doing then the genny will cut out if we try using the kettle, toaster OR hairdryer. Practise will help, but we did discover that the petrol one at 2.5kv was not powerful enough for our needs and the new diesel one is 6kv and has proved capable of providing power for the arc welder as well as the needs of the caravan.

CG

PS - buying a silent running diesel genny does not mean that you will not hear it. Indeed, if you have neighbours and they do not like what you are doing then they will complain to the environmental health dept of the council and the leaflet they sent us made us laugh with all the talk about domestic residences!! We have decided to utilise the cushions currently in the food store caravan in to cutting down the noise that can be heard from the genny.

Don't forget that one of the advantages of a diesel genny is the fact that it will run on red diesel. The genny should pay for itself in the money it has saved us eventually.

[Hobbit]

I've only just come back to this forum after a rather long break due to illness, and this is one of the first posts that caught my eye. I had intended to provide a lot of technical help to these forums last year, relating to off-grid services of all types in order to help out those folk whose knowledge and skills are more focussed on agriculture than things technical.

At some point I'll be producing a manual which will cover every aspect of power generation, fuels, pumps, water extraction and supply, sewage, heat sources etc, which will be offered at low cost to F2F book owners. A lot of this information is already being put to use on my own 14 acres which will now finally get the attention it deserves after such a long break.

Meanwhile, just to add my tuppence worth to this thread, I assume that your inverter is a fairly low wattage square-wave type? Hence not being able to run a TV, and you'll probably find that anything with a motor will run poorly too. Without getting too technical, a square-wave (or modified-wave) inverter is a crude (hence cheaper) way of producing the 60 hertz frequency needed for AC power. The current spends too long at 0 volts whilst cycling up and down 60 times per second, and hence can't properly run motors, including those in fridges, due to their need for a smooth supply. TVs are also affected by this. The analogy would be that of pedalling a bicycle - you wouldn't get far if you kept pausing every time the pedal reached the top of it's stroke!

The solution is to use a 'pure sine-wave' inverter which replicates mains electricity far more efficiently. It costs a bit more, as a quick glance at Ebay will show, but will run everything within it's rated capacity. I personally run a 3kw inverter which will even handle my dishwasher (bit decadent I know!), and I use a smaller 1kw inverter for general standby duty. The bigger one is only turned on when needed due to it's higher 'idle' power consumption. All inverters consume power whilst turned on, even if not in use, and the larger cheap ones can eat 1 amp or more per hour on standby. A high quality pure sine-wave unit can have a standby rating as low as 0.2 amp. It should also be noted that induction motors (i.e. power tools, fridges, pumps etc) have a startup surge of upto 10X the rated current. In other words, a fridge rated at 90 watts will require 900 watts to start up, hence my use of the 1kw inverter to keep my fridge running. My advice: buy the best quality second-hand pure sine-wave inverter that you can afford for the size you need. There are loads on Ebay all the time but avoid the Chinese-made ones like the plague!

Second point, more briefly, if you're going to get a diesel generator then try to get an older model with an in-line injector pump, as opposed to the modern rotary injector pump. The good reason being that the in-line models are lubricated by the engine oil but the rotaries rely on lubricant in the fuel onl;y. This becomes a serious issue when using home-made fuels, including a lot of bio-fuels, which don't have lubricants in them. Injector pumps are incredibly reliable until abused, after which they become incredibly expensive to repair (definately not a DIY job!). I mention this because I intend growing a couple of acres of rapeseed oil to power my generator (almost) for free. I'm sure most of you know that vegetable oils make a good fuel for diesel engines, and rapeseed oill is a particularly good fuel in this respect. An acre will produce at least 2000 litres of cold-pressed oil, with the remaining two thirds of crop weight making either an excellent high protein animal feed or very efficient fire fuel.

Sorry if I've rambled a bit, there's a huge amount of information on off-grid services. I'll try and get it across in a structured fashion in future.

[treebloke]

Cornish Gems and Hobbit, thank you so much for such detailed info. I will def bear those points in mind when selecting a genni.

Im not sure I could listen to a genni for 12hours, listening to them for 1/2 hour on camp sites is bad enough. I would like to use wind and/or solar power as my main source and the genni as back up. I dont propose to have many electrical items, just those mentioned in my first thread. I wont have a tv or dishwasher. My biggest things will be pc or laptop and fridge.

Do you know much about wind and solar power, as in how reliable these things are nowadays. I dont want to be spending a fortune on a large scale kit. I was hoping to get a couple of leisure battery kits as I thought these would be cheaper to buy and suitable for my needs but I was told that it is actually cheaper to buy 240v kits. This is something I will need to investigate but I would like to know if anyone produces sufficient wind/solar with small kits.

Hobbit I think a book on services is a great idea, especially if its written in simple terms as it is all a bit confusing.

Cornish Gems - You say the genni will have saved you money, do you think it is cheaper to run a genni than invest in wind/solar power? I am interested in the most economical option. Although the genni is prob more reliable than wind/solar at least its quieter.

[Cornish Gems]

Cornish Gems - You say the genni will have saved you money, do you think it is cheaper to run a genni than invest in wind/solar power? I am interested in the most economical option. Although the genni is prob more reliable than wind/solar at least its quieter.

We don't really have much option as we do not have the capital available to be able to invest in wind/solar power. We can't even afford to get Western Power to bring power on to the site.

[Hobbit]

Treebloke - I know what you mean about generator noise. After spending the afternoon on a 50 year old diesel tractor, the last thing I'd want is to spend the evening listening to a genny thumping away! Modern super-silenced diesel units can be as quiet as 50 decibels these days. To put that into perspective, your wheelie bin is about 86db when being rolled up the path. A 5kw version can be had for as little as £800, but again watch out for inferior Chinese models, they won't last. It's very easy to make a soundproof cabinet using sound-deadening material such as that found under the carpet in your car, just remember to allow for ventilating the heat produced by your genny (or pipe it somewhere useful). I intend to purchase a much older reliable generator partly for ease of maintenance and partly for its wide fuel tolerance. I fully expect to be able to make it completely silent and will post my silencing cabinet design when I've achieved this.

Meanwhile, do you actually need a mains voltage generator as opposed to a 12V one? Charging batteries with a conventional generator is very inefficient. I've been using a small Lister engine to drive two 150amp car alternators to charge my traction batteries. An hour and a half of charging, costing about 2 litres of fuel, gives me about 400 amps of battery power - enough to run most small stuff for the rest of the week. The 10% power loss through an inverter is more than made up for in the cost savings of producing power this way. I admit this is only useful if you're mechanically minded.

Solar/wind. They have a life expectancy of about 10-15 years and require little maintenance after installation. Wind turbines aren't silent but are far gentler on the ears than an engine. This option is ideal if you're intending on keeping your leisure batteries 'float charged', i.e. kept constantly topped-up, as this is what traditional lead-acid batteries were designed for. If you intend on constantly draining and recharging them however, then you need traction batteries such as those found in milk floats and fork-lifts. A leisure battery will only survive 150-200 complete recharges before the lead plates lose their coating. A traction battery is designed for a heavy discharge/ fast recharge environment and will last 10 years+. If buying leisure batteries then avoid the newer sealed 'gel type' units. They were intended for marine use to prevent acid spillage when rocking on the water and are inferior to standard lead-acid types.

Personally, I don't utilise solar/wind due mainly to the large setup required to produce the amounts of power-on-demand that I require, but also partly due to the attention that panels and turbines would draw to me in this early stage of setting up a farm (remember Tinkers Bubble was spotted due to the glint of solar panels). If your usage doesn't extend much beyond lighting, laptop, 12v fridge, occasional small pump use etc, then 250 watts of solar panels and a pair of 100 amp leisure batteries will do the job for you. You'll need more if you intend using power tools or bigger pumps for all but the shortest periods.

There's plenty more useful details on these subjects but I'm rather conscious of the length of these posts. I really will get on with putting all this onto paper asap and I promise I'll make it understandable to anyone capable of changing a plug!

[surreydodger]

Hobbit, excellent, informative and understandable piece on green power as ever.

Have you mentioned the 2 x 150amp alternators on F2F before or have I come across your witterings on another forum somewhere (RCHQ, Its Not Easy Being Green??) ?

[Hobbit]

Hi SurreyDodger, you've got a good memory! Yes, I think I may have mentioned the alternator idea in a much earlier post last year that wasn't archived. I was about to go into full steam at the time, passing on lots of technical info, and unfortunately got knocked for six by illness for a year. So I'm pretty well picking up where I left off, hopefully being of some help to anybody that needs it.

I should add that my primary interest here is starting a farm using the F2F method, and examples such as your own have definately given me renewed confidence in achieving this. I'm being cautious and want to make sure that I have every aspect covered before taking the plunge with a PDN, but that day isn't far off now. I'm quite lucky in that the local senior planning officer seems to have no problem with my site so far, despite me having sited a static caravan on it a few years ago, plus associated 'sprawl' of sheds, tractors etc. The PO spotted my site whilst visiting the stable development next door, but was informed by both my neighbours that there was nothing for him to be concerned about. I knew it was a good idea to let the neighbouring farmer keep the silage from my land for free for the last few years!

Obviously I'm going to have to start doing things by the book from hereon, now that I've been noticed, but F2F should make my aims possible now. Best money I ever spent!

I think the idea of a 'services' or DIY/building section on these forums would be an invaluable resource to those folk who are starting the physical side of the F2F method. Being able to search for info under basic categories such as 'Building', 'Power', 'Water Management', 'Heating' etc could potentially save people a lot of money and time in their endeavours. It might just stop me 'wittering' in the wrong threads aswell!

[surreydodger]

Well I'm glad to hear you are on the mend. That's the trouble with bodies,, they bite back now and then without much warning.

I am a little perverse on more forums but then I'm a bit of a simpleton on such matters. However, I do see the sense in having a forum covering building works and services. Maybe something like 'Infrastructure' would cover it all?

[Cornish Gems]

I think the idea of a 'services' or DIY/building section on these forums would be an invaluable resource to those folk who are starting the physical side of the F2F method. Being able to search for info under basic categories such as 'Building', 'Power', 'Water Management', 'Heating' etc could potentially save people a lot of money and time in their endeavours. It might just stop me 'wittering' in the wrong threads aswell!

Thank you for your support to the recent requests we have made. No doubt when Steve has the time he will deal with them but at the moment he seems busy working at various places around the world.

CG

PS - what do you mean by archived? All topics are visible, readable and available for more replies, save one or two. There is a very small number that have been deleted. The ones that have been deleted are the 2 topics about anyone available for chat tonight as tonight was now quite some time ago. We deleted a topic that we ourselves posted because there were no replies to it.

Then we discovered when doing a search for particular words that sometimes we would be shown a posting by someone who last year had only made the one post and they did not receive any reply regarding their situation, nor chase it up and the last time they showed up as having been active was shortly after opening the new topic.

Then there were 2 topics about Donald Trump and these have now been merged so that all the information is under one banner so to speak.

[Hobbit]

Hi CG - I'll certainly be glad to be a regular contributor to any kind of 'services' section that may evolve here. I've already learnt a huge amount from other people's reserch and work on these forums, so it only seems right that I contribute in any way I can. I doubt I'd get very far with the planners if I'd not boiught the book and joined this forum!

Regarding 'archived' posts, I made the mistake of assuming that the very earliest posts somehow didn't make it into long-term storage. I just didn't look hard enough; it's surprising just how much has been written on here since this forum started.

Glad to be back in the community!

[treebloke]

I am a little perverse on more forums but then I'm a bit of a simpleton on such matters. However, I do see the sense in having a forum covering building works and services. Maybe something like 'Infrastructure' would cover it all?

I totally agree, It would make it so much easier to find the info, in fact I was surprised that there wasnt a forum dedicated to this as it is such a large area.

[Groundhog]

A lot of caravan fridges will run on gas as well as electricity.

Gas fridge and freezer is definately the way to go,that is what zaps alot of my battery bank,I switch off fridge overnight.They arent cheap tho about £700

[treebloke]

Second point, more briefly, if you're going to get a diesel generator then try to get an older model with an in-line injector pump, as opposed to the modern rotary injector pump. The good reason being that the in-line models are lubricated by the engine oil but the rotaries rely on lubricant in the fuel onl;y. This becomes a serious issue when using home-made fuels, including a lot of bio-fuels, which don't have lubricants in them. Injector pumps are incredibly reliable until abused, after which they become incredibly expensive to repair (definately not a DIY job!). I mention this because I intend growing a couple of acres of rapeseed oil to power my generator (almost) for free. I'm sure most of you know that vegetable oils make a good fuel for diesel engines, and rapeseed oill is a particularly good fuel in this respect. An acre will produce at least 2000 litres of cold-pressed oil, with the remaining two thirds of crop weight making either an excellent high protein animal feed or very efficient fire fuel.

We have a small spring within the wood adjacent to our land and are thinking of constructing a water wheel to drive an alternator to charge a battery, trial and error will be the way forward but I have been researching this and hope to make somthing crude but effective.

[Hobbit]

Spot on! How I wish I had a natural source of running water. If it helps, a car alternator produces maximum output at 2500-3000 rpm. Obviously a water wheel won't come anywhere near that so you'll have to increase the gearing somewhat. Trying to achieve normal alternator running speeds will probably stall your water wheel (if it's a small one), due to the huge gear ratio needed, but you can get away with much lower speeds as you'll have the luxury of driving it 24/7. This is where an alternator is perfect as it is designed to produce current even at the slowest speeds, unlike the old dynamos in which output would drop to useless amounts at low speeds.

The basic operational difference between an alternator and a dynamo is that an alternator produces current at any speed, but is incapable of charging a very flat battery due to the need for a small amount of current to activate the charging circuit. A dynamo, on the other hand, can charge the flattest of batteries but can't produce current at low speeds. Dynamos were useful back in the days when hand-cranking your car on a winter morning due to a pancaked battery was the norm, but today's reliable batteries have made them obsolete. Might be an idea to keep one on standby though, just in case you do discharge your batteries inadvertantly.

And of course, you have the advantage of an alternator being a completely self-contained, self-regulating unit. No need for regulators, dump loads etc. Good luck, I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

[treebloke]

I have been reading this and the various links http://www.reuk.co.u...-Waterwheel.htm

My thoughts are either a cycle wheel or possibly and motor bike wheel and chain or even a car axle with wheel on one side and half shaft on the other end to drive the alternator. I think the cycle wheel might work best due to its light weight.

If I ever manage any form of success I will let you know.