12 replies to this topic

[Thegreatescaper]

Today my landlord/vendor contacted the planning department in repect of the letters they have sent him due to the caravan on site. He asked where he stood in respect to the caravan being on site as my animals are agricultural and there is a health and safety requirement for it. As the story was relayed to me, there was lots of coughing, spluttering and stuttering, followed by 'well that is fine then but we need proof' and went on to request that I contact him. I did so within a couple of hours, no need to make life difficult for them if they are not me. During that call he didn't request any information from me verbally, he just requested that I write to him to explain the need for the caravan to be there.
Now, this would contain the same information that I would have to give if they enforced, so I see no harm in doing so. But I don't want to make any errors and this is information that I am not legally obliged to give unless enforced upon. Am I missing something? I would appreciate any thoughts you may have.

[adrian007]

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[Thegreatescaper]

Thanks Adrian, I'll be honest, that was what I was hoping to hear. I know I can sometimes come across in the wrong way because I am ready for the troubles that many encounter. I always try to be nice because life is more pleasent that way. Unfortunately I've come across too many that see niceness as weakness and am a little jaded, I don't know why they are like this but just look at debs the new members story to see how some like to be. Not that many here need to look further than their own neighbours to see the worse side of 'humanity' so i just try to be pleasant and firm and I guess some see this as being confrontational. A situation I would much rather avoid with the L.P.A. because of my own predjudices of their brethrens behaviour.

[Groundhog]

They dont just enforce on you all that takes a long time they just like saying the word ENFORCEMENT alot.

 Firstly read the 1995 GPDO Agriculture then re read it a dozen times so you know it off by heart and more importabtly you remember it know it and understand what it is which is a document showing PERMITTED DEVELOPEMENT RIGHTS YOU HAVE,read it again until you are confident that in any situation that might arise be it a surprise visit or call or just a general chat with someone that you can confidently inform them that you are alowed to have it there,Qoute the 1995 Gpdo and inform them it is a stockmans hut allowed under permitted developement it is a moveable structure, it is a piece of farm chattel no more no less just like a trailer that you use for your agricultural business

You need to be as confident about this as if someone asked you when youre birthday was then told you that is incorrect .Quite simply it is just because aplanning officer tells you different,I have had an officer tell me to my face repeatedly that I was wrong and it didnt apply to me also that I had an enforcement on my caravan when I didnt they insisted I did when challenged why wasnt it in the planning portal or on the local council website I was told it might not be in the public domain !!!!!!. And thats coming from a public servant representing the LPA dont think she was misinformed which in its self would be neglegent she was just trying to take control

and yes and be nice thats great but being a bit kurt doesnt hurt you need to be the teacher not the pupil,be nice after you have corrected them dont be a push over above all know you facts, rights, and how you fit into the current facilities that allow you to do what you are doing,havin said that dont lay all your cards on the table.

Have said it before its a bit like a game of Poker

[Thegreatescaper]

GH to the rescue once again. Im feeling I better offer you a wage for all the assistance you have offered recently. I have read your suggestion of animal bedding and am looking into it, just have been so busy have only had time to pop on here and have a quick read over the last few days, my typing skills are not the quickest.
The 1995 GPDO is the bit I really needed. I've read it through in the past but I have read so much on this subject over the years that I was struggling to remember what bit was relevant where. It all seems so different actually doing it, whats relevant is actually sticking as im not trying to remember everything that may be relevant or not, but remembering the where, what and why of loads that I do remember is not always easy, if that makes sense?
I'm writing up quite a detailed document, illistrating what I am doing and the relevant legislation alongside it. I am doing this for myself, so that whatever crops up throughout the process I have something that I can quickly reference. I will then produce a shortened version, outlining the basics of what I am doing alongside the relevant legislation such as the 1995 GPDO, the animal welfare act 2006 and the health and safety at work act 1974 for the council. Thats where it's taking the effort, if something can be said in ten words, I struggle to get it to less than a thousand lol.
As for them lying, i'm expecting it, thats why I am trying to get my plan in order ready for them. Fingers crossed a well worded letter may have the desired effect, I am trying to make it tell them the minimum they need to know, i.e. why the animals and their use are agricutural, and that its a stockmans hut, cheers for that, alongside the relevant legislation in the hope that they realise I know the relevant rules and are working within them. I feel the sooner they know I know the game the sooner they may as well give up any lies. And the truth is, it is agricutural and allowed! I rarely belive what I am told by public servants. It seem no matter what area of government they work in, their number one concern is to make you think something can't and wont be done as soon as is possible, irrelevent or the rights and wrongs of the situation. If they manage it, saves money and effort. If not, well you should have been able to anyway, so nothing lost on their part.

[j and H]

Hi Thegreatescaper, don't know if this is of any help, and i really am not trying to teach you to suck eggs, 

but when i see a page that is of interest, ..i just go up to the address bar where it says www.blablabla..and there is a PLUS SIGN, on the left…this will add the page to your saved pages

 

sorry..my uppercase button is naff

[Thegreatescaper]

Hi J & H, all and any help is always appriciated. I had everything bookmarked on my laptop, the one that gave up the ghost the day I got the land! Using my eldests notebook at the moment.

[Groundhog]

Its a difficult one knowing how to communicate and thats down to each individuals communicating skills.

I have found that if you can communicate relevant information in a curtious friendly way but also fire a few warning shots just every now and then.A bit like how you banter/bicker with your wife or partner or husband.(That is if you wear the trousers !!!!).

I personaly wouldnt give anything away.

It is of no concern or business of the LPA what you do on you land you do not have to justify anything to them or tell them anything about yourself or business or plans.If they have any questions they should be addressed to you ie PCN or enforcement .Ok different if you are in the process of an application then a proactive approach is called for,and the correct info needs to be supplied

I hear often on the forum peolpe saying "Ive told them this or that and what im going to do" as if to get approval.Its irrelavant.

People will all to often when an officer turns up answer all there questions, "WHY" because its difficult not too if you are a polite reasonable person as it sound s rude not too.

[Thegreatescaper]

Thanks GH, I have decided to write just a simple statement stating that the 'caravan' (as they refer to it) is in fact a stockmans hut, sited in accordance with 1995 GPDO, and required under the 2006 Animal Welfare Act and the 1974 Health and Safety At Work Act. And leave it at that. I have no doubt that this will start a game of letter tennis with many more questions to follow. I now have any relevant answers in the document I wrote for myself, to which I can instantly refer. Would you consider it a good idea to then refuse to answer any more questions (I realise I don't even need to answer the one above one, but at least I have provided the legitimate reason for it being there) and wait for them to issue a P.C.N. or enforce if they disagree and only then answer further questions?

[Groundhog]

Dont refuse to answer questions just supply them with a relevant answer that shuts the door they  wont issue a pcn or enforcement if its your Pd.A PCn is to state a planning contravention well if you havent commited one which you respond stating the above critiria it is there it can go no further.

Dont get panicky about it treat it as a game,especially as your not living (Staying there).

You can be repetative if they come back with the old "That doesnt apply to you" "ENFORCEMENT ENFORCEMENT" reply,just reply with the same anwser.

Another thing is after they use the enforcement word lots and you respond dont expect a letter saying "Terribly sorry old chap carry on our mistake" They will acknowledge nothing ,which is designed to keep you a little Jittery thinking can I really keep it here.Its a piece of farm chattel.

Once again have it in your mind its a  stock trailer why couldnt you keep it there its no different just a caravan.

I was also contacted saying they had had reports of a JCB on site !!!!!!

CALL THE POLICE HES USING A JCB ALL PLANNING OFFICERS TO REPORT TO SITE TO INVESTIGATE.   ok made me laugh when i got that one but anyone .who is unsure its a bit worrying

Reread the GPDO again covering all aspects of forrestry and agriculture and high light what will apply to you and learn and believe it.Working on exixsting drains,constructing tracks for operational use.Other things like applying to the EA for a licence to burn farm waste an "Exemption" would suggest you get one of those.Working on existing drains can be used for puting in a septic tank or as I would call it "A secondary holding tank to anexisting sytem" Do it to the correct regs and if challenged state the PD that applys(Would still put it in on a Sunday night after dark tho to prevent the "Hes got a JCB on site malarcy" Better still do as J&H has buy yourself a cartoon digger 

[Thegreatescaper]

Thanks once again GH, you really are a diamond. I think your advice is starting to pentetrate my rather dense skull, lol. Keep answering their questions, just keep the answers as short as possible and directly limited to their question so as not to give them something else to question, just as my 12 year old does when she doesn't want to give an incriminating answer lol, she always manages to do it sweetly, dad should learn a lesson. For as long as they get a relevant answer and cannot prove otherwise they would be foolish to issue a P.C.N. or enforcement notice as they would have no evidence to back it up and I would have evidence to prove my case.
I understand all the relevant legislation and how it applies to my efforts now, thanks again, you should do this for a living.
My only real concern is I know how underhanded they can be, but I know I am working within the current regulations and am willing to fight as needed to prove it. I've got to be honest, once i've completed on the sale I couldn't care less what they try, an enforcement notice, P.C.N. or even a stop notice can be dealt with should the council want to waste peoples council tax, but until then I have a landlord to consider. As long as it can't cost him money/porridge he isn't concerned, but I worry their threats could change his mind.
I realised their love for the word 'enforcement' when I met an 'Enforcement Officer' wandering around my neighbours farm, investigating a caravan. Not enforcing then, more investigating, so an Investigating Planning Officer then surely, but hey, enforcement sounds scarier lol.
Will look into getting an exeption for burning the farm waste, thanks for the heads up. And a septic tank, thats great, would certainly make working more civilised.
Writing to you about the J.C.B. onsite only highlights the idiocy of these people. Its like asking you to justify a tractor on your farm lol. I think Lumpnuggin's onto something with charging these idiots for our time in answering these ridiculous questions.

[tottenham]

Greatescaper

You properly have this sorted now but others might be interested in this High Court judgement

 

 

WEALDEN DISTRICT COUNCIL-V- SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENVIRONMENT

 

Says it all really ( not to be used if living in said caravan - only welfare)

As a caravan has a legal description (caravan act) the woolly chicken case wouldn't apply.  

[Thegreatescaper]

That's excellent Tottenham, cheers. Going well so far but not done yet. I haven't been about here much due to being so busy, unfortunately much of it nursing a beautiful pony critically ill with an exceptionally cruel virus until she had no chance of beating it and we had to put her to sleep to prevent her suffering once it had progressed to far to recover from. R.I.P. Honey-bee. I will be updating my diary soon but as others here have found, sometimes you need to play ya cards close before throwing them down gloating lol. Hope to be around more now.