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Hi, We bought some land (10 acres) about 2 years ago and there was a derelict building on the site. We put in and received full planning to build a 6m x 12m 1.5 storey timber framed building + septic tank for our business. We also applied and got planning for a animal shelter. However, we have some neighbours who bought land at the same time and they moved on to the site (caravan and tents) and starting erecting buildings despite having their applications turned down. Due to these activities, the LPA are about to impose a setion 4 (or something - don't know what this stuff is ?) on all the land in the area. There has also been a very definate change in attitude by the planners and there appears to be an inspector around every week. I am using the animal shelter to milk goats and I plan to extend the herd to increase production, with a view to start making cheese when the new building is complete. I wondered if anyone had any advice about how we proceed, as we do plan to extend further in 2013 but are not sure how this state of affairs might affect us in the long run. We have tried discussing things with the neighbours but they are impossible to talk to (they even sent bogus objections against us to try and halt our plans). Would appreciate any advice. Cheers Gordon
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Nuisance Neigbours
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Lord Welby
, Feb 05 2012 12:28 AM
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#2
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:01 AM
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helend
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Typical, we worry about doing the right thing and get endless grief from the authorities yet these people seem to be getting away with blue murder. Where's the justice?
Gordon I don't know all the answers but I can give you some pointers.
There's info on here about Article 4 restrictions - the gist is that they remove your permitted development rights so pretty much anything you do needs full PP every time. Or something like that, don't quote me. However given that you have less than 12.5 acres/5 ha you have different PD rights anyway and would need to apply for PP for most things you plan to do.
Well done for getting your PP by the way - that's a positive sign that the planners believe what you're doing is acceptable - I won't be more positive than that cos they are pretty dead pan people.
As to the neighbours, I'll let the others advise you on the legal/planning type routes you can go down. But I would suggest gathering as much evidence of their shenanagins as possible, times, dates, photos of all the activity. Are there any other neighbours that could do the same?
Also if these "people" continue disregarding the laws and generally being a nuisance etc the planners will take no notice of any objections they lodge about you.
What does the Inspector say to you? Are you sticking to what you've got permission for? I would speak to them next time and express your concerns that they idiots are ruining things for everyone.
I know about arsehole neighbours, and I'm no diplomat, I wish you luck!
Gordon I don't know all the answers but I can give you some pointers.
There's info on here about Article 4 restrictions - the gist is that they remove your permitted development rights so pretty much anything you do needs full PP every time. Or something like that, don't quote me. However given that you have less than 12.5 acres/5 ha you have different PD rights anyway and would need to apply for PP for most things you plan to do.
Well done for getting your PP by the way - that's a positive sign that the planners believe what you're doing is acceptable - I won't be more positive than that cos they are pretty dead pan people.
As to the neighbours, I'll let the others advise you on the legal/planning type routes you can go down. But I would suggest gathering as much evidence of their shenanagins as possible, times, dates, photos of all the activity. Are there any other neighbours that could do the same?
Also if these "people" continue disregarding the laws and generally being a nuisance etc the planners will take no notice of any objections they lodge about you.
What does the Inspector say to you? Are you sticking to what you've got permission for? I would speak to them next time and express your concerns that they idiots are ruining things for everyone.
I know about arsehole neighbours, and I'm no diplomat, I wish you luck!
#3
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:59 AM
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surreydodger
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Okay, just for clarity and avoid confusion for those who maybe reading here and are not familiar with everything, a planning inspector only turns up when we are doing things like planning appeals. What you will have at the moment are planning officers and enforcement officers (two very distinct jobs with different skill sets and should not be confused) visiting to 'inspect' what is going on. That job is generally carried out by EO's but can equally be carried out by either.
Sorry if that all sound pedantic but planning is a difficult enough process without the confusion of wrongful descriptions.
Right, meanie hat off, nice hat on
Article IV's are dreadful things and in my book should be banished. They only serve to punish law abiding folk whilst those who work outside the regulations ignore Art.IV's in the same fashion that they ignored the exisitng planning regulatoins. The innocent are unduly punished as they now have a much more expensive and complex route to gain any planning where permitted development rights are removed.
You must contact your planning authority and request precise details of their intended Article IV directions and the land it will effect. All Article IV directions are not the same. Most only restrict certain actions of PD rights and not all of them. You must get into a dialogue with them now, especially if to date as from how it sounds by your letter, that you enjoy a reasonable relationship with the planners.
Article IV's are something I only have a limited knowledge of and I haven't ever found anyone who truly understands how to fight them. One thing is clear and that is the planners must have a reasonable and justified reason for applying an Art. IV. That doesn't mean a whole deal in practice as all they have to justify is they 'feel' there is a threat to the land in question being affected by undue and illegal development. There is also, and quite importantly, a process whereby one can sue the planning department for losses that occur if your PD rights are removed. I have never given this much more than a cursory glance but it is there for your use and worthy of further examination.
What you can do if you understand the councils liabilty for having to pay you money, is use that to your advantage and tell them you will sue at every opportunity. You obviously do that in a manner coming from the stance that you have not contravened any planning rules or been a threat to breaking the regs; thus why should any land within your remit be justifiably considered to be under threat.
As I say, first step is to get and do some research on challenging an Art. IV direction. There is little info I have found in the past for a direct answer (you may be better at finding that info than I was with a bit of luck) to defending against Art. IV's but I think there's enough out there about how Art. IV's are applied and the process required. If you understand that then you are in a better position to defend yourself.
Sorry if that all sound pedantic but planning is a difficult enough process without the confusion of wrongful descriptions.
Right, meanie hat off, nice hat on
Article IV's are dreadful things and in my book should be banished. They only serve to punish law abiding folk whilst those who work outside the regulations ignore Art.IV's in the same fashion that they ignored the exisitng planning regulatoins. The innocent are unduly punished as they now have a much more expensive and complex route to gain any planning where permitted development rights are removed.
You must contact your planning authority and request precise details of their intended Article IV directions and the land it will effect. All Article IV directions are not the same. Most only restrict certain actions of PD rights and not all of them. You must get into a dialogue with them now, especially if to date as from how it sounds by your letter, that you enjoy a reasonable relationship with the planners.
Article IV's are something I only have a limited knowledge of and I haven't ever found anyone who truly understands how to fight them. One thing is clear and that is the planners must have a reasonable and justified reason for applying an Art. IV. That doesn't mean a whole deal in practice as all they have to justify is they 'feel' there is a threat to the land in question being affected by undue and illegal development. There is also, and quite importantly, a process whereby one can sue the planning department for losses that occur if your PD rights are removed. I have never given this much more than a cursory glance but it is there for your use and worthy of further examination.
What you can do if you understand the councils liabilty for having to pay you money, is use that to your advantage and tell them you will sue at every opportunity. You obviously do that in a manner coming from the stance that you have not contravened any planning rules or been a threat to breaking the regs; thus why should any land within your remit be justifiably considered to be under threat.
As I say, first step is to get and do some research on challenging an Art. IV direction. There is little info I have found in the past for a direct answer (you may be better at finding that info than I was with a bit of luck
) to defending against Art. IV's but I think there's enough out there about how Art. IV's are applied and the process required. If you understand that then you are in a better position to defend yourself.
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 03:07 PM
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Lord Welby
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Hi Helend and Surreydodger - Firstly, thank you for your very speedy and detailed repsponses.
In respect of the art 4, as you point out, I don't own 5Ha so I had to go through Full planning for our buildings. However, I do have an agreement with another neighbour to rent a further 5 acres, which is now in place, so I am well within the requirement. Therefore, if an art 4 is placed on my land (which is very likely because we have a shared access track and there is another access track to their land, which passes over my land) then, as I understand correctly, it will be a lot harder for me to progress in the future.
As I said, the attitude of the planning officers was extremely helpful and we probably wouldn't have succeeded without their advice. However, in the past month or so there has been a distinct change and when I spoke last week to an enforcement officer who had previously been very helpful, he intimated that there had been some complaints from the neighbours of bias and it had caused problems for him and some of his colleagues. This is all very unfortunate - we have done nothing wrong !
I guess my main problem with these people is that they are just so disruptive and apparently have no problem with breaking the law. During the last summer, there were several weekends when they had large groups of friends over camping on their field and although I wasn't present myself, I understand that their parties went well into the night and they were banging drums and blowing whistles in the early hours of the morning. I hate to think what affect this is having on the livestock !
According to a neighbour that I speak to who still has occassional contact with them, they are planning plenty more of these events for this year and have even been advertising on the internet. They also told him that they know how to play the law and it will take years for the council to do anything to stop them and when that time comes, they will just sell up and buy somewhere else ! From your experiences, is this really the case ? Can these people operate for years before anything can be done - if so, I might as well get out now ! (We already had some thefts and damage to our belongings last summer which we suspect was their lot) Any help gratefully received. Cheers Gordon
In respect of the art 4, as you point out, I don't own 5Ha so I had to go through Full planning for our buildings. However, I do have an agreement with another neighbour to rent a further 5 acres, which is now in place, so I am well within the requirement. Therefore, if an art 4 is placed on my land (which is very likely because we have a shared access track and there is another access track to their land, which passes over my land) then, as I understand correctly, it will be a lot harder for me to progress in the future.
As I said, the attitude of the planning officers was extremely helpful and we probably wouldn't have succeeded without their advice. However, in the past month or so there has been a distinct change and when I spoke last week to an enforcement officer who had previously been very helpful, he intimated that there had been some complaints from the neighbours of bias and it had caused problems for him and some of his colleagues. This is all very unfortunate - we have done nothing wrong !
I guess my main problem with these people is that they are just so disruptive and apparently have no problem with breaking the law. During the last summer, there were several weekends when they had large groups of friends over camping on their field and although I wasn't present myself, I understand that their parties went well into the night and they were banging drums and blowing whistles in the early hours of the morning. I hate to think what affect this is having on the livestock !
According to a neighbour that I speak to who still has occassional contact with them, they are planning plenty more of these events for this year and have even been advertising on the internet. They also told him that they know how to play the law and it will take years for the council to do anything to stop them and when that time comes, they will just sell up and buy somewhere else ! From your experiences, is this really the case ? Can these people operate for years before anything can be done - if so, I might as well get out now ! (We already had some thefts and damage to our belongings last summer which we suspect was their lot) Any help gratefully received. Cheers Gordon
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:23 PM
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surreydodger
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Not within my remit I'm afraid Lord Welby. However, it sounds to me like you need to invest in a muck spreader and some really high pedigree chicken or pig manure. I would reckon your fields are low on nutirent and they need organically feeding.
The other alternatives are to buy them out or go through the due process of the law
The other alternatives are to buy them out or go through the due process of the law
#6
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:37 PM
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Lord Welby
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Hi Surreydodger,
LOL - Yes, I do think my land may benefit from some extra nutrients, particularly the area adjacent to my neighbours, so watch this space.
Unfortunately, buying them out is not an option I can afford.
Guess that leaves the due process of the law - but I am not holding my breath - we have all seen Dale Farm!
LOL - Yes, I do think my land may benefit from some extra nutrients, particularly the area adjacent to my neighbours, so watch this space.
Unfortunately, buying them out is not an option I can afford.
Guess that leaves the due process of the law - but I am not holding my breath - we have all seen Dale Farm!
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 06:50 PM
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helend
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I don't know if I can say I'd recommend this but I have done it myself.
When my PO gave me duff gen about PP for field shelters and the like we decided to abandon our plans to develop our small holding.
Therefore I had nothing to lose and set about bombarding the planning office and indeed Building Regs with queries/complaints over the cowboy work that was done at my neighbour's new build, and matters which affect our property.
He lived in our house a few years before us - and his legacy lives on. He self built his house next door after splitting the land, and selling our house on. His still not landscaped several years on, it's way too big, it overlooks us big style and is frankly an eyesore in the area. It hasn't been signed off by Building Regs and with the bodge jobs he's carried out he never will be!
So I took it upon myself to invite the building inspector over and I've questioned the planners decision in allowing this to be built in such a way as to afford us NO privacy - the land slopes so much his house towers about 12 feet above us. It currently doesn't comply with some conditions imposed with the PP, eg the rain water running off the muddy "garden" washes silt down onto the highway - over the pavement - there's no drop kerb either.
The whole council buildings/planning/highways know my neighbour, and decline to comment usually! But they also say enforcement is one man and unless it affects the general public it's not a priority.
B******ds!
Another post mentions the council using a section 215 against nuisance neighbours, I don't know what this covers specificaly but the post relates to action against dumping scrap metal and all manner of crap on the land.
If the noise kicks off, don't forget environmental health.
What about the compensation angle if the council don't sort these idiots out, devaluing your land, affecting your enjoyment, what about Your Human Rights? And SD is right, challenge the Article 4 - see if it can specifically outline their land only or seek compensation on that basis.
Do you have the energy to deal with this lot, or the patience to wait them out? I really do sympathise.
When my PO gave me duff gen about PP for field shelters and the like we decided to abandon our plans to develop our small holding.
Therefore I had nothing to lose and set about bombarding the planning office and indeed Building Regs with queries/complaints over the cowboy work that was done at my neighbour's new build, and matters which affect our property.
He lived in our house a few years before us - and his legacy lives on. He self built his house next door after splitting the land, and selling our house on. His still not landscaped several years on, it's way too big, it overlooks us big style and is frankly an eyesore in the area. It hasn't been signed off by Building Regs and with the bodge jobs he's carried out he never will be!
So I took it upon myself to invite the building inspector over and I've questioned the planners decision in allowing this to be built in such a way as to afford us NO privacy - the land slopes so much his house towers about 12 feet above us. It currently doesn't comply with some conditions imposed with the PP, eg the rain water running off the muddy "garden" washes silt down onto the highway - over the pavement - there's no drop kerb either.
The whole council buildings/planning/highways know my neighbour, and decline to comment usually! But they also say enforcement is one man and unless it affects the general public it's not a priority.
B******ds!
Another post mentions the council using a section 215 against nuisance neighbours, I don't know what this covers specificaly but the post relates to action against dumping scrap metal and all manner of crap on the land.
If the noise kicks off, don't forget environmental health.
What about the compensation angle if the council don't sort these idiots out, devaluing your land, affecting your enjoyment, what about Your Human Rights? And SD is right, challenge the Article 4 - see if it can specifically outline their land only or seek compensation on that basis.
Do you have the energy to deal with this lot, or the patience to wait them out? I really do sympathise.
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 07:05 PM
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helend
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I forgot - I got free legal advice over my problems via my smallholding insurance through NFU - if I decide to proceed I pay a small excess. If you have a similar policy including the land check if you've got legal assistance if you decide to pursue
Gotta go - countryfile's started!
Gotta go - countryfile's started!
#9
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:17 PM
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Lord Welby
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Hi Helend,
Sorry to hear you have had such a S*#T to contend with - at least I do have some space between me and them (although direct neighbours, they have erected their buildings at the far end of the field, so I don't have to see them everyday).
It all sounds like the planning people have their work cut out with these more difficult cases - problem explains why they go after the easy law abiding prey instead (a bit like the police V motorists).
I did not know about the free legal advice via insurance bit, so that is very good advice - cheers.
I do know that they will NEVER get planning consent, so it may be a case of just making life as difficult for them in the hope they sell up - but of course, they will just move on to some other poor bugger !
Of course, I could just hand my land over to a bunch of travellers and let them hound them out
I will keep the post going with periodic updates - cheers Gordon
Sorry to hear you have had such a S*#T to contend with - at least I do have some space between me and them (although direct neighbours, they have erected their buildings at the far end of the field, so I don't have to see them everyday).
It all sounds like the planning people have their work cut out with these more difficult cases - problem explains why they go after the easy law abiding prey instead (a bit like the police V motorists).
I did not know about the free legal advice via insurance bit, so that is very good advice - cheers.
I do know that they will NEVER get planning consent, so it may be a case of just making life as difficult for them in the hope they sell up - but of course, they will just move on to some other poor bugger !
Of course, I could just hand my land over to a bunch of travellers and let them hound them out
I will keep the post going with periodic updates - cheers Gordon
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